Recommendations for boiler timer controller?

[DaveS79]

Hi all. Hope everyone's well and not feeling the pinch to badly in these crazy times.

Just after a recommendation really. Been asked to change simple on/off switch to overnight boiler control to timer type has anyone a recommendation for a not to expensive one which would be easy to do a straight swap over with. Also he has mentioned that in the kitchen there is a boost control switch can someone clarify for me how these actually work, their purpose and how they are wired. Thanks........the quicker the day comes I don't have to keep asking silly questions on here the better

 

[ProDave]

Firstly this is not a "Boiler" programmer you want, that is a very different thing.

You want an Immersion heater timer,  Your options are limited as all you can really do is fit a boost timer in place of the switch in the kitchen, something like this

https://www.toolstation.com/search?q=boost timer

What is the "problem" you are trying to solve?

The switches next to the tank should be left on all the time, they are only there as a service isolation point should you need to change an immersion heater.  Then the bottom heater will only be powered at night and heat the full tank at the cheap rate.

The switch in the kitchen is only there to be turned on IF you run out of hot water in the evening as a boost to heat the top part of the tank. that should NOT be left on all the time.  Fitting a timer like the one above will ensure it can't accidentally be left on all the time.

 

[Murdoch]

Dave - you need to clarify what the customer wants.

my educated guess , like pro Dave is that one switch controls the economy 7 immersion (the lower one typically on the tank) and that the other switch is connected to the boost (the higher onne typically on the tank)

just because an immersion switch is “on” doesn’t mean it’s drawing a load - once the tank is up to temperature, the immersion thermostat will turn it off (but the neon will still be light)

hope this helps

 

[DaveS79]

Firstly this is not a "Boiler" programmer you want, that is a very different thing.

You want an Immersion heater timer,  Your options are limited as all you can really do is fit a boost timer in place of the switch in the kitchen, something like this

https://www.toolstation.com/search?q=boost timer



What is the "problem" you are trying to solve?

The switches next to the tank should be left on all the time, they are only there as a service isolation point should you need to change an immersion heater.  Then the bottom heater will only be powered at night and heat the full tank at the cheap rate.

The switch in the kitchen is only there to be turned on IF you run out of hot water in the evening as a boost to heat the top part of the tank. that should NOT be left on all the time.  Fitting a timer like the one above will ensure it can't accidentally be left on all the time.

Dave - you need to clarify what the customer wants.

my educated guess , like pro Dave is that one switch controls the economy 7 immersion (the lower one typically on the tank) and that the other switch is connected to the boost (the higher onne typically on the tank)

just because an immersion switch is “on” doesn’t mean it’s drawing a load - once the tank is up to temperature, the immersion thermostat will turn it off (but the neon will still be light)

hope this helps

Thanks Dave, Murdoch. Makes a lot of sense. He had sent me this photo requesting a timer to be installed in place of immersion control switch. As said the thermostat is there to maintain the water temp anyway and if he wanted to switch off all night heating if say property unoccupied he can do this through control switch. Thanks for clarifying booster switch Dave will definately recommend change of this and ask him to clarify exactly what he wants.

 

[Murdoch]

Dave : adding a boost switch to the switch in the kitchen is very unlikely to control the lower element - you need to go to site and check out what does what.

Sounds like a dumb tenant and a clueless landlord confusing each other.

 

[ProDave]

If he is regularly using the boost switch, are you sure the bottom heater is working?  If that has failed then the boost switch will be his only option.

Otherwise as noted some education needed.  By default the bottom heater is already on a timer, for 7 hours at night on the cheap rate.

 

[Murdoch]

Otherwise as noted some education needed.  

Its amazing how little people know about their houses these days .... I did a fuseboard change recently and had to ask the customer where the switch was for the immersion - they didn’t know what an immersion was, or where the switch was - I found it after some searching!

 

[ProDave]

And how many people refer to a hot water tank as a "boiler"

I learned that lesson wiring a loft conversion. The architects drawings showed a "boiler" in a cupboard, so I wired for a boiler.  When it turned up the "boiler" was a dual immersion heater off peak unvented hot water tank.  That took some creativity to get around that one and that's when I learned you need MORE than just the architects drawing for a job like that.

 

[Evans Electric]

Its amazing how little people know about their houses these days .... I did a fuseboard change recently and had to ask the customer where the switch was for the immersion - they didn’t know what an immersion was, or where the switch was - I found it after some searching!

I've come across that quite a lot over the last few years  ...no idea where the meters & boards are , the water stop valve ,  as you say  what switches do , especially spur units  , never try to find out  , fans stuffed with paper to stop them working ..."Too noisy "  

 

[DaveS79]

If he is regularly using the boost switch, are you sure the bottom heater is working?  If that has failed then the boost switch will be his only option.

Otherwise as noted some education needed.  By default the bottom heater is already on a timer, for 7 hours at night on the cheap rate.

I've messaged him Dave asking for bit more clarity on what exactly he is trying to achieve and will ask why and when he is using boost switch. I think he is a landlord so probably getting crossed wires (literally) with tenant. He's actually very high up in local politics (local Facebook posts starting to work : ) so probably got a lot more on his plate to deal with at the moment.

 

[DaveS79]

Morning chaps

Just got message back from customer which is below. 

"I live alone and heating my hot water every night when tank has some insulation and in summer is not always required But I then usually forget to reach in and manually switch off. So I was thinking more of a daily timer i.e. on Tuesday night, off Wednesday night, on Thursday night of the immersion boiler during the night I never use the booster unless have been away and no hot water in tank."

He's obviously pretty clear he is after a timer for the overnight immersion heating. Have I got any options for this? Cheers 

 

[Murdoch]

Morning chaps

Just got message back from customer which is below. 

"I live alone and heating my hot water every night when tank has some insulation and in summer is not always required But I then usually forget to reach in and manually switch off. So I was thinking more of a daily timer i.e. on Tuesday night, off Wednesday night, on Thursday night of the immersion boiler during the night I never use the booster unless have been away and no hot water in tank."

He's obviously pretty clear he is after a timer for the overnight immersion heating. Have I got any options for this? Cheers 

The cost of installing / changing it won't be small so any savings will take a long time to come though

My advice to the customer would be to leave the top "boost" immersion off and leave the bottom one switched on ................. 

 

[ProDave]

He is obviously turning on and off the BOTTOM heater, otherwise why would he have to "reach in and turn it off"

Just tell him the correct procedure is to leave it on all the time the property is occupied and it heats up at the cheap rate over night.

If he is too tight to have hot water every day and only wants to heat it on bath / shower days, suggest the tenant pays for the timer?

I don't know of an immerssion timer that lets set different times on different days, so you probably need a single channel heating programmer and a contactor.

 

[Murdoch]

View attachment 10541

Wonder why the neon is on when the switch is off?

 

[ProDave]

Wonder why the neon is on when the switch is off?

Wired wrong.  In into Out.

 

[Murdoch]

Wired wrong.  In into Out.

I know that, you know that .............. maybe the load is on all the time. Come across that before, on a ring, so switching it off "broke" the ring

Needs investigating IMHO

 

[ProDave]

I know that, you know that .............. maybe the load is on all the time. Come across that before, on a ring, so switching it off "broke" the ring

Needs investigating IMHO

Not as bad as the one I found once.  Needed to change a broken socket.  Shiny new CU, no labels.  Went through all the MCB's in turn, none turned the socket off.  Cover off ti investigate.  Found each end of the ring finals connected to it's own 32A MCB.

 

[Murdoch]

Not as bad as the one I found once.  Needed to change a broken socket.  Shiny new CU, no labels.  Went through all the MCB's in turn, none turned the socket off.  Cover off ti investigate.  Found each end of the ring finals connected to it's own 32A MCB.

Did an EICR a couple of years ago, no rcd protection. 6 x RFC and only 2 gave end to end readings ...

got the remedials inc new CU, outcome was 4 x RFC and several radials . Thankfully the house was completely empty

it’s jobs like this that make the job interesting, especially when you say you can’t give a fixed price for the repairs ...

 

[DaveS79]

He is obviously turning on and off the BOTTOM heater, otherwise why would he have to "reach in and turn it off"

Just tell him the correct procedure is to leave it on all the time the property is occupied and it heats up at the cheap rate over night.

If he is too tight to have hot water every day and only wants to heat it on bath / shower days, suggest the tenant pays for the timer?

I don't know of an immerssion timer that lets set different times on different days, so you probably need a single channel heating programmer and a contactor.

Thanks Dave for confirming difficulty getting immersion timer that can set different times on different days. Does seem like wants to go to a whole load of ag just to control lower rate night heating. 

Wonder why the neon is on when the switch is off?

Well spotted Murdoch. Something going on defo needs proper look at. If getting a permanent boost no wonder why he would feel has more than adequate hot water overnight. Have some other works he wants done so said will check this out at time....If ever people start letting me back in their houses lol