Should The A Regs Be Split

[Nidgeben]

I was had an interesting conversation the other day which got me thinking, the guy I was talking to asked me if I think the regs as in BS7671 should be split up into say a set for domestic and set for commercial and industrial then add on for the other bits like Caravan sites etc but at the same time removing the wonderful grey areas that allow different interpretation of the same reg.

The guy I was talking also to wanted to see testing and inspection being carried out by a person who has had a minimum length of time of ten years as a qualified electrician and only be able to inspected types of installation that they have expectancies of. As now a one year qualified person who has only done site house bashing could technically carry out an inspection on a old industrial installation which to me is not right as they have no experience in that environment.

I think he has a point in some aspects.

 

[Andy™]

As now a one year qualified person who has only done site house bashing could technically carry out an inspection on a old industrial installation which to me is not right as they have no experience in that environment.

erm... maybe try reading the regs? like the part that says you should be competent. now whilst you may well be competent at domestic, in your example you are clearly not competent to carry out that EICR...

 

[Nidgeben]

erm... maybe try reading the regs? like the part that says you should be competent. now whilst you may well be competent at domestic, in your example you are clearly not competent to carry out that EICR...

Perhaps before you through insults you should read what I said, and for your information I own a company that had been specialised in testing and inspection for the last twenty years for large blue chip companies and government bodies. So I think I know what is needed thanks.

The reason I said that was a because we had to take over a contract and revisit 120 buildings recently because the company who won the tender has made such a bad job of the inspection and it was found that that was one of the reason because the company had used temp agency staff including someone who was a year out of their time even a French guy who had been in the country two week and that is why this guy I was talking to was looking at what could be do to limit these types of situation.

 

[Jono Pashley]

Yes Yes give them another way to screw us out of our hard earned cash

 

[Manator]

As Andy says, your example would show a clear lack of competence to carry out such works. The wiring regulations apply to all installations and I see no requirement to separate them. Before Part P there was no such thing as a domestic installer, just electricians or cowboys!

Now the cowboys can get registered to do the shoddy work they were intended to be kept clear from by an ill concerted idea, during an eureka moment in politics.

Not all domestic installers fall under this hammer, we have some on this forum who are very clear of their limitations, and ask advise when out of their depth.

If I was forced to put bread on my table I think I would do the same thing as they do, however it is those who allow this to happen that should be targeted. For instance I could not do a short course to become a lawyer, be registered, and carry out the work that could mean the difference between a life imprisonment or a life of freedom.

There are factors that would and do result in prosecution for any person who claims to be expert (by giving advise) that is subsequently taken. So before you say you can do something, make sure you can because if anything happens your going to jail if you cannot prove competency. Being registered under a scheme does not in a court of law prove competence.

 

[Andy™]

Perhaps before you through insults you should read what I said, and for your information I own a company that had been specialised in testing and inspection for the last twenty years for large blue chip companies and government bodies. So I think I know what is needed thanks.

The reason I said that was a because we had to take over a contract and revisit 120 buildings recently because the company who won the tender has made such a bad job of the inspection and it was found that that was one of the reason because the company had used temp agency staff including someone who was a year out of their time even a French guy who had been in the country two week and that is why this guy I was talking to was looking at what could be do to limit these types of situation.

there was no insults.

you come here, ranting on about wanting the regs changed because someone done an EICR badly. the fact is, the regs already state in black and white (621.5) that the person carrying out EICR is to be competent. the problem you have is to do with someone getting the wrong staff to do the job. there is nothing wrong with the regs

 

[Manator]

Perhaps before you through insults you should read what I said, and for your information I own a company that had been specialised in testing and inspection for the last twenty years for large blue chip companies and government bodies. So I think I know what is needed thanks.

The reason I said that was a because we had to take over a contract and revisit 120 buildings recently because the company who won the tender has made such a bad job of the inspection and it was found that that was one of the reason because the company had used temp agency staff including someone who was a year out of their time even a French guy who had been in the country two week and that is why this guy I was talking to was looking at what could be do to limit these types of situation.

Now I took Andy's reply in the context it was given and you have not. Your example shows lack of competency, at no point did Andy say you were! He used your example.

I think you have mistaken the whole point of the reply. The English language is very prone to misunderstanding without body language. The point Andy was proposing is that under the very regulations that you want changing is a regulation that those who carry out this work should be competent. It really is a simple as that.

 

[Nidgeben]

Ok perhaps my wording was wrong but the fact is we see so much bad workmanship when doing inspection and testing what this guy was asking did make sense in away to me, it is a big mind field of a topic and I'm sorry I didn't put that across correctly in my question.

I know there are thousands of very good professional electricians out there but it makes you wonder sometimes what is happening to the standards or who is looking after them in our industry when you see what we do.

For example we attend a lot of new private developments that are just handed over after the developers warranty periods, these are some of the big developers and it is shocking what we find, but no one ever seems takes responsibility it just goes back and forward between the developers and the managing agents and normally the residents end up paying for putting it right.

We had one of 10 floor blocks fully occupied and apparently passed by local building authority, the board in three of the block had a main RCD on the board which tripped every time the SON street lights came on, which took out the whole communal area power and lighting including the safety systems, no emergency lighting installed any where in two of them, the smoke vent system had not be connected. Developers response it's out of the warranty period.

Another one, over 65 block again boards with main RCDs two of them regularly tripped because of SON lighting and on one Db we found three floors of corridor lines on one protective device, all apparently been passed and certificated by a approved contractor But we found the Boards not marked, no warning labels, no test points for em lighting, no maintenance points for 24 hr lighting the list goes on.

I know the competent argument will go on forever but what the question was is how long should you be in the industry before you should be classed as competent to carry out EICR.

 

[kerching]

A new Aldi has opened near me. Posh flats above shop, underground carpark below.

In the carpark, ceiling height max headroom 2 m , is a ceiling mounted cable tray. Underneath, not ON, the tray is a bundle of 16 x 4 SWA cables. Car park is open 24/7 and is used by local scrotes and skateboarders. I give it a couple more weeks until car park is shut due to hanging cables nearly strangling people. Fire alarm cables are also suspended BENEATH the tray on ( I think) plastic cable ties.

SOMEBODY has signed it off though, so it must be ok!!!

 

[Nidgeben]

As with regards to splitting up the regulations that is a question I think best left well alone.

 

[Sharpend]

What we need are some private INDEPENDANT electrical consultants that have the knowledge and experience to give accurate advice to companies, authorities etc when they suspect something is not correct with the work they have had done. This may give the evidence and support that is required but the problem is who would these specialists report too that will do something about the standards over and above the current scam system.?

 

[ProDave]

The reason I said that was a because we had to take over a contract and revisit 120 buildings recently because the company who won the tender has made such a bad job of the inspection and it was found that that was one of the reason because the company had used temp agency staff including someone who was a year out of their time even a French guy who had been in the country two week and that is why this guy I was talking to was looking at what could be do to limit these types of situation.

That is just an example of what happens when you give the contract to the cheapest bidder.  They have clearly failed in their duty and not employed correctly competent staff to do the job properly.

But of course nobody will ever take them to court for such things will they?

This doesn't make the present regulations wrong or bad. If people ignore regulations all in one book, what makes you think the same people would take more notice if they were split into two?

 

[Nidgeben]

there was no insults.

you come here, ranting on about wanting the regs changed because someone done an EICR badly. the fact is, the regs already state in black and white (621.5) that the person carrying out EICR is to be competent. the problem you have is to do with someone getting the wrong staff to do the job. there is nothing wrong with the regs

There's no ranting my friend, it was a question asked to me so I just tried (badly admitted) to transfer that question on.

Ok Andy what is your interpretation of competent ?not just what the regs state!

 

[Sidewinder]

Ok perhaps my wording was wrong but the fact is we see so much bad workmanship when doing inspection and testing what this guy was asking did make sense in away to me, it is a big mind field of a topic and I'm sorry I didn't put that across correctly in my question.

I know there are thousands of very good professional electricians out there but it makes you wonder sometimes what is happening to the standards or who is looking after them in our industry when you see what we do.

For example we attend a lot of new private developments that are just handed over after the developers warranty periods, these are some of the big developers and it is shocking what we find, but no one ever seems takes responsibility it just goes back and forward between the developers and the managing agents and normally the residents end up paying for putting it right.

We had one of 10 floor blocks fully occupied and apparently passed by local building authority, the board in three of the block had a main RCD on the board which tripped every time the SON street lights came on, which took out the whole communal area power and lighting including the safety systems, no emergency lighting installed any where in two of them, the smoke vent system had not be connected. Developers response it's out of the warranty period.

Another one, over 65 block again boards with main RCDs two of them regularly tripped because of SON lighting and on one Db we found three floors of corridor lines on one protective device, all apparently been passed and certificated by a approved contractor But we found the Boards not marked, no warning labels, no test points for em lighting, no maintenance points for 24 hr lighting the list goes on.

I know the competent argument will go on forever but what the question was is how long should you be in the industry before you should be classed as competent to carry out EICR.

The only chance of sorting such a mess, or at least getting the incompetent companies prosecuted, mind, they'll go through first, is if someone dies, and HSE or the FRS get involved.

That however, is not a nice prospect.

Why should someone have to loose their life before things are put right, what price a life?...

 

[Nidgeben]

That is just an example of what happens when you give the contract to the cheapest bidder.  They have clearly failed in their duty and not employed correctly competent staff to do the job properly.

But of course nobody will ever take them to court for such things will they?

This doesn't make the present regulations wrong or bad. If people ignore regulations all in one book, what makes you think the same people would take more notice if they were split into two?

Ok this guy was from a information collection company doing a survey, so some is paying money out to ask these questions so I thought I would pass it on!.

What this guy was asking me was basically a long the lines of do I think the regs are to complicated in some aspects or cause contradiction which can causes confusing to even the best in the industry. Should they be split up and if so how?

He also asked me Do I think the regs have expanded to quickly, he asked me to think about how the regs have changed since I started which was the fifteenth ed.

And as I said in my first post it got me thinking,

But what I think is that our so called governing bodies have lost their way and it seems it's no longer to do with helping the thousands of good honest hard working electricians in the industry today or really even protecting the general public from the bad but how to make the most money. But that's my opinion.

If you look at the regs over the years look how they have changed but in reality we still wire a house in the same way as we did 30 years ago. Look at what has changed in the regs look at the amount if bonding that had to done, if it was metal, bond it, that's gone out the window now is protection devices, I would guess the next big one will be surge protection and it will go on. And I suppose at some point it will change if there is money in it. Look at the last update for the reg from BSI it's £5 from IET it's £6.00 or £ 3.90 for members. So to me if contractors are being asked what they think I am sure there's plans a foot.

But one other thought look at the advances of technology it won't be long before a property has a full LED lighting scheme throughout run on 12 to 6 volt DC cat5 system and just a bank of transformers and spurs by the board How will the regs couple with that .

 

[kerching]

Well I remember when PIRs were a single sheet of A5 paper......and that was too much!

I am sure Deke will be here shortly reminiscing upon the days of PIRs being scribed onto Parchment or Vellum.....

 

[Nidgeben]

The HSE do not bother with issues with communal areas as they do not have the resource to police it, only when something happens they might attend. That was what I was told by a representative of them when I was researching following the changes in the testing requirements of emergency lighting and how it affected systems in communal areas of private residential developments.

Well I remember when PIRs were a single sheet of A5 paper......and that was too much!

I am sure Deke will be here shortly reminiscing upon the days of PIRs being scribed onto Parchment or Vellum.....

That's one to ask, why was it really changed to EICR, I still call them PIR and so do a lot of my clients, live, phase, line! All mean the same but just means new books!

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Hmmmmmm.....

Splitting the regs....  WHY????

is the basic fundamental principal of a safe electrical installation different because of the environment it is in?

e.g.

a Domestic: for example a large country property with 3-phase supply and 10 distribution boards around the house and its outbuildings...

or

commercial:  A small estate agents office with a 10way single phase supply feeding mostly lights, sockets and a small kitchen area for drinks and light refreshments for the staff..

stop and think of Part 1 of the regs: 

My short summary paraphrase (go and read pages 14-22 for the full text) would be:-

A source of power, connected through some protective and/or isolation devices, along some conductors to a load. must operate in a safe and reliable manner and not endanger any people property or livestock....

this basic fundamental principal is the same no matter how big or small an installation is...

The rest of the regs are just added guidance to assist with making an appropriate decision about how compliance with the basic scope and principals of safe installation work.

If someone is working out of their depth and cannot interpret some guidance for the application they are working in...

They will still be out of their depth if it is split into 2,3,4 or more versions..

As has been said:

Cost cutting, penny pinching and selecting the cheapest tender for a job will generally always result in shoddy work be it installation OR inspection.

Also as has been discussed numerous times on here:

Competence is defined in Regulation 16 of EAWR.  which IS statutory.. unlike BS7671.

Guinness

 

[steptoe]

I think they should be split,

a version of 10x the size they are now for the mere mortals

and,

a version for me and Deke

keep doing what you've always done, you wont see the flames from your house [note 1]

:note 1: house can be taken as being any property where you are consuming alcohol

job done   

 

[Sharpend]

Splitting the regs!!! Could you imagine how many amendments would be written, we'd be forever buying new books. As I tell my grandson 'Leave it alone'

Why is the human so insistant on complicating matters all the time. Keep it simple-don't understand it either take on some proper learning or do t do it at all. Simples!