Spec For Amnd 3 Boards

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Don't get me wrong I am not suggesting it would be less safe or not work.  Just think it would look shoddy.
It might not look right, but when you are pushed for space then you have to do what you have to do,,, and if that means you have to install a CU sideways on then so be it...

I put one in sideways on only a month or so ago....there was limited space to the left of the head/meter where the old Wylex domino board was with a window above... This was under the stairs BTW,,, and I installed a metal Schnider board

 
OK,

Here we go:

I’m of the opinion that a board that is bottom hinged does not comply with the guidance issued by BEAMA, who are their trade body for compliance with the spirit of Amd3.

The crux of this is the lid opening down and thus the ability of this lid to be left open.

This then does not contain the plastic breakers within the non-combustible, metal enclosure assembly.

See the BEAMA guidance, link here:

http://www.beama.org.uk/asset/7DF1EEE0-F314-452B-81E276BC561F4B89/

This will download the file to your pc, I have attached the pdf anyway.

(Sorry pdf didn't attach)

It was stated by the sales representative during a 25+ minute phone call with myself, that there is nothing in BS7671 that requires a self-closing lid.

This is correct.

BS7671 is an installation standard.

IMHO it has no business dictating product requirements, however, we now have to live with this ill thought out and badly conceived regulation.

The product standard is EN61439-3.

However, BS7671 requires this “additional” situation of a non-combustible enclosure, of which steel is an example of a material that will meet the intent of the regulation.

There is a description of a polymer material test that, should, meet the regulation in EN61439-3, it refers to other product and testing standards.

However, BEAMA (and its members) have gone down the steel route.

As there is no real product standard to go by, one only has BS7671, the associated guidance from the IET and that from the product manufacturers association, BEAMA to judge the requirements by, oh, and when things go all pear shaped, you’ll have to stand in front of the wigs and justify why your board with a downward opening lid caught fire, and killed people.

Remember, because BS7671 is an install standard, you can’t rely on the product standards to back you up.

The board can comply with BS7671, & EN 61439-3 and have a lid that opens both ways, but, if it opens downward and the thing catches fire and burns the house down and kills people, it will be the installer who is to blame, and who will be found guilty because of the inadequacy of the standards and guidance.

So my statement of “non-compliant” could be true or false.

However, this will never be proven until it goes to a court of law, and by then someone will be dead, and that is wrong.

Also an installer, who may well be competent, but, have installed a defective device correctly will be the defendant, and “he” will be hard pressed to prove his innocence.

Now.

BS7671 states:

[SIZE=10.5pt]421.1.201 Within domestic (household) premises, consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 and shall:[/SIZE]

  1. [SIZE=10.5pt](i) have their enclosure manufactured from non-combustible material, or[/SIZE]
  2. [SIZE=10.5pt](ii) be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of non-combustible material and complying with Regulation 132.12.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]NOTE 1: [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Ferrous metal, e.g. steel, is deemed to be an example of a non-combustible material.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]NOTE 2: [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]The implementation date for this regulation is the 1st January 2016, but does not preclude compliance with the regulation prior to that date.[/SIZE]

Next we need to look at what BEAMA define as the enclosure.

Please see the pdf, in this link:

 and if you look at point 2 on the second page, and the associated diagram, Diagram 1, then this becomes clear.

Noting also that the BEAMA document is dated June 2015.

http://www.beama.org.uk/asset/7DF1EEE0-F314-452B-81E276BC561F4B89/

Now we need to look at what is an enclosure and what an enclosure does.

So if we look up the meaning of enclosure in the Oxford English Dictionary, where else can we go?

It is not up to you or I to define the term enclosure.

The word enclosure suggests that it is something that encloses another thing.

Now a consumer unit consists of 3 main parts which make the enclosure, basically, the back (base), the front (cover) and the access cover for the breaker operating devices (door). This is defined in the BEAMA document, attached and linked, point 2 on page 2.

We cannot go to EN61439-3 for any of this as it is not defined in the product standard, it is a bodge from BS7671, we can only refer to BS7671 & the manufacturers trade body for guidance as this is a .2xx regulation.

Looking to the Oxford English Dictionary (online, accessed 09/09/15).

The word enclosure has several meanings.

Those relevant are below:

enclosure, n,

1.      The action of enclosing.

2.      That wherewith something is enclosed:

a.     An outer covering or case; an envelope.

Now taking the last word of these definitions copied directly from the OED, the last word, envelope.

As in envelope that one would send a letter in, or envelope, as in to cover completely “I was enveloped by my duvet in bed Sunday morning because it was cold outside” kind of thing.

Does this make sense?

If one looks up the etymology and words associated with the word envelope, then these all point towards a total enclosure or total surrounding of something.

The etymology of the word enclose thus enclosure also directs the reader to something, totally, surrounded.

I am not the person to argue with, The, Oxford English Dictionary (oed.com).

I will leave the reader to look up the various derivations and mutations of enclose and envelop.

However, they all point toward the same thing, totally covering or enclosing (I can’t think of a better word) something.

So, it seems from the definition of the words given in the OED, BS7671, is very explicit in its requirements.

That the whole board encloses fully the devices therein.

Ergo, if the cover over the breaker operating devices (door) does not envelop these then it is not an enclosure as it does not enclose the breakers.

Remember, we have only BEAMA guidance and EN61439-3 to look to for what a consumer unit consists of.

I’ve not looked to EN61439-3, however, I can & will if needed.

However, I VERY much doubt that the BEAMA definition will be in contravention of that given in the EN std.

Noting, that the EN standard, is the product standard that these boards must meet, to comply with the Low Voltage Directive, therefore to be legal for sale in the EU, thus the UK.

So, taking this onward, and using the Electrium Crabtree board as a comparison.

The fundamental design of the board is such that it will default to being an enclosure.

The breaker access lid is top hinged so it will be self-closing, thus default to enclosing the devices fully, as per the definitions of the words given in BS7671 by the Oxford English Dictionary.

A bottom hinged lid however will not

Hence my issue.

Now, one can prop the door on the Crabtree open, however, that is a modification to the default design.

The door on a bottom hinged assembly could be knocked open and would then not default to being an enclosure.

Take from this what you will.

In the event of a court case, I suspect that an expert witness would go down this same road as I have here.

IMHO those utilising a bottom hinged lid are wrong, and unless you can argue in court that the words used do not actually mean what the OED says they mean then you are on a hiding to nothing.

If this email were presented in a court of law, I would expect that a Judge/Jury would agree with it?

What do you think, now I’ve put it this way?

We are not in a position to argue with the definitions put in BS7671 when they are confirmed by the OED IMHO.

I have sent this to BEAMA and they have ignored my questions.

So BEAMA, have refused to comment upon my argument.

Remember these are not my definitions of interpretations of the words used they are those of BS7671 & the OED.

Almost all of the major manufacturers have gone with a top hinged lid.

Whilst this is my opinion, I have not “made up” my own definitions, the definitions of the words, phrases, and specifications are those from BS7671, the OED, & BEAMA.

Now, I know one of our members has a relative who is in the legal profession.

I would seriously appreciate this being passed to him, and to get his interpretation.

BTW, you know who I am on about, & you know how to get me, away from here if needed! ;)

 
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SH*T SIDEWINDER, YOU ARE A TOUGH ACT TO FOLLOW!!  But here goes.

BSEN61439-3 has not changed and recognises plastic as a suitable enclosure material, as long as it meets the Glow-coil tests, as per IEC60695-2.  

The only document (and a non-statutory one at that) that requires a non-combustible enclosure, is BS7671:2008 AMD3.

Since it requires the Assembly to be enclosed, presumably under normal conditions, then the door defaulting to the closed position, makes sense.

If the door is not top-hinged, but would stay closed if manually shut, either by friction or by a latch mechanism, then that should satisfy the intent of the REG.

Perhaps a notice on the lid to caution the user to ensure the closed position, would be an acceptable way of satisfying the "enclosed" requirement.

With regard to side-mounted CUs, I used to offer a label set, so that the labelling would read horizontally. I probably still have them and I could add a "close-caution" as part of the set. The precedent for side-orientated MCBs etc, is Commercial DB design and practice, so a side-mounted CU is not a problem.

I have dealt with BEAMA on a few occasions in the past and I experienced a total lack of co-operation. They don't like being challenged.

Incidentally, if we take the actual wording of 421.201.1 at face value, then it says the that CUs must only comply with BSEN61439-3.

A Mix & Match assembly could very well comply with BSEN61439-3, but not be certified for compliance. BEAMA coined the phrase Mix & Match, which IMHO means "you can mix the components, as long as the components match.

SBS Dave

 
In the op i made it simple by calling the lid self closing, this i did mean by gravity.  I have never seen a 3 phase board with a lid that closes by its self in the same way a consumer unit side mounted wont. I mentioned 3 phase as i have fitted many in a dwelling and apart from Hager i think they  all   (or  most)  have  metal doors/lids. I also have fitted a few makes of metal C/U years ago with metal doors that hinged down, so were left open 90% of the time.

When Amnd 3 was first announced i chatted with my Assessor about it & commented i have used metal ones for a while as they are physically larger and he replied they do not meet Amnd 3 as they had plastic lids.

 
It is getting late

I have done a bottle of Shiraz

So this may have NO relevance but...

Herr Obersturmvanfuerher Cable und Oberleutenant Stanniford said on their Webinar that "MCbs were made of non combustable material , so,they could not catch fire so the non combustability kerfuffle did not apply to them"...so would it matter if the door was open or hinged at bottom, as the Reg is for non combustability NOT Fire proofing/fire containment

As i sadi before...this is the Shiraz talking so may well be irrelevant

Justbsaying

 
OK, Dave,

The door not defaulting to the closed position goes against the definition given in the OED.

This is the term used in BS7671, therefore it would not comply with BS7671.

I would bet a "brief" would have a field day with the way this stupid mess has been written.

The issue that we have is BS7671 has not and can not define what the PRODUCT should be, that is down to PRODUCT standards.

BS7671 is an INSTALLATION standard, so should have NO SAY in product specification.

However, it has stuck it unwelcome and inadequate oar into the product specification, and, done it incompetently.

So, we can ONLY refer to what has been put in BS7671, and that which has need interpreted as so by the manufacturers to comply with the .2xx regulation, which does NOT apply anywhere else where EN 60364 appplies.

It is getting late
I have done a bottle of Shiraz
So this may have NO relevance but...

Herr Obersturmvanfuerher Cable und Oberleutenant Stanniford said on their Webinar that "MCbs were made of non combustable material , so,they could not catch fire so the non combustability kerfuffle did not apply to them"...so would it matter if the door was open or hinged at bottom, as the Reg is for non combustability NOT Fire proofing/fire containment


As i sadi before...this is the Shiraz talking so may well be irrelevant


Justbsaying
The same material that CU's are supposed to be made of, to comply with EN61439 then.

However BS7671 does not agree with this.

It also applies an additional specification which is not defined, nor interpreted in ANY product standard.

Oh, & Dave,

The issue is compliance with the Annexes for interruption and safe breaking of fault currents in excess of the rating of the MCB's, and in turn the theoretical rating of the DB assembly as a TTA.

This is where the issue comes.

IF the assembly meets the TTA requirements then it is fine, it will be OK up to the breaking capacity in the standards including the UK annexe,

If not, then it won't, this is where the installer must take on the legal role of certifying that the assembly will meet the requirements.

This cannot be disputed, as this is written into the standards and you know it is.

The issue being is that manufacturers will only "guarantee/certify" that their assemblies comply, if they are assemblies tested by themselves, or agreed by them as being compliant.

i.e. Schneider, have stated that ALL their brands if selected correctly to fit the board will comply.

Now it matters not where the breaker is designed or manufactured, it is ALL down to the certification by the manufacturer and their statement of compliance with the annexe.

Like it or not, I don't, but, the reasoning is there, and it is specified in the standards.

 
Perhaps Essex is using Essex thinking? With the burning inside the metal will expand and therefore pushing the door outwards thus opening and allowing flames to spread? Never mind the ruddy great hole in the back where the cables come in!

 
Hi Paul,

I had only got as far as;

[SIZE=10.5pt]"421.1.201 Within domestic (household) premises, consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 and shall:[/SIZE]

  1. [SIZE=10.5pt](i) have their enclosure manufactured from non-combustible material, or[/SIZE]
  2. [SIZE=10.5pt](ii) be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of non-combustible material and complying with Regulation 132.12.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]When i had already made my mind up. You are of course completely right. As I said in another post some time ago, when a judge interprets the law he is supposed to give words their "ordinary" meaning. and look at the "disease that inflicteth the commonwealth" that parliament sought to legislate for or against as the case may be.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Look at the operative words, and the intent of the legislation is clear.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]"421.1.201 Within domestic (household) premises, consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 and shall:[/SIZE]

  1. [SIZE=10.5pt](i) have their enclosure manufactured from non-combustible material, or[/SIZE]
  2. [SIZE=10.5pt](ii) be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of non-combustible material and complying with Regulation 132.12.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Something cannot be "enclosed" in an open box......[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]I would say that the CU has to be orientated in the same way as it was when tested, presumably the right way up..... [and with the door closed][/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]john...[/SIZE]

 
Just added this to another thread....arrived by email today

Darren's Frequently Asked Questions

Question:

What code should I give a plastic consumer unit not surrounded by non-combustible material after the 1st January 2016?

Answer:

In line with the guidance given in the Electrical Safety First’s Best Practice Guide 4, a code C3 should be given to a plastic consumer unit that is installed in a dwelling under a wooden staircase, or if it is installed in the sole means of escape from the property. If it’s not in one of these two locations there is no need to include it on the EICR. However you may wish to inform your client of the change to regulations.

To be clear, there is no code required for a plastic consumer unit installed in an installation that is not a dwelling

Just saying

 
There could possibly be an issue with heat and ventilation design in MCB's if they're mounted sideways. The thermal bi-metallic strip utilised in the thermal tripping mechanism constantly creates heat whilst there's a load current. Many MCB's if you view them with a Flir camera are warmer at the top termination because of the internally generated heat rising, mounting sideways could result in the bi-metallic strip of an MCB below adding heat load to the bi-metallic strip of the one above. I'm not sure if in reality it would be an issue in a UK domestic installation but in theory it might. We often have to refer to derating figures for grouping factors and MCB's in high ambient temperature environments.

See P36 http://www.neweysonline.co.uk/neweys/pdf/Hager_Protection_Devices_Technical.pdf 

 
I've never gone that deep into it TBH but it's a fair question if you mean how do the operate accurately. I'd assume with t/pole MCB's they internally compensate during manufacture for the extra heat on the center pole but the derating factors would still apply to t/pole MCB's mounted in groups because the two outer poles of the breaker would no longer be in free air. I can't say with any authority, I'd have to go dig for some design info if I had the time but I'm sure someone here will know more than I do.

 
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