Spur from cooker circuit - what to do?

[brummydave]

Discovered a twin 13A socket run in 2.5 Twin and earth spurred from a cooker circuit!

The socket is in the adjoining lounge so no idea what was plugged into as the place is empty.

The spur cable comes out the back of the cooker, through the adjoining kitchen cupboard and through the wall to the lounge!

The cooker radial is supplied from a 30A rewireable using 6mm to a 45A switch and 13A socket faceplate. Then a 6mm to the 11kw cooker. (double oven and 4 hob free standing appliance - rare!) Diversity puts it at just under 27A.

My question is, what to do about the naughty spur?

Disconnect it?

FCU it? Somehow?!!

Rewire it with 4mm or 6mm?

Ignore it and put a note?

Thoughts please?

Thank you.

Dave.

 

[Andy™]

have a look at fig 15b, appendix 15

 

[Manator]

Personally I would disconnect it due to the fact that it is spurred into a separate room, could be nasty if the ring or radial for those sockets were isolated and that was still live.

There is also a misconception that undersized cables can not be used in this scenario, any cable can only be effected by the current draw on that cable, therefore a 13 amp socket could not (if used properly) draw the amount of current to harm the supply cable.

It is not good practice, or a method I would advocate; from the description you have supplied you are in a perfect position to rectify this now.

 

[Zeespark]

Disable and note it.

AndyGuinness

 

[ProDave]

Personally I would disconnect it due to the fact that it is spurred into a separate room, could be nasty if the ring or radial for those sockets were isolated and that was still live.

Is that a reg I have missed? you can't have two different circuits feeding sockets in one room?

Nasty for who? Presumably anyone "isolating" sockets are doing so to work on them, so they should be competent, and they SHOULD test for dead before touching them.

 

[Riggy]

Ignore it and put a note.

Intrigued to hear any valid reasons for doing anything else (that's valid as in 7671, as opposed to personal preference/prejudice).

 

[Ian Speirs]

One twin socket spurred off a 30 amp circuit. Not any different to taking a spur off a ring main when you think about it.

Unless there is some other factor that we can't see. As said above, note it, but don't worry about it. Worst case scenario the fuse blows on Christmas day cooking dinner and the wife trying out her new iron on said socket.

 

[kme]

I`d disconnect it. No second thoughts.

Why is it different to a spur from a ring? Because this isn`t a ring, its a fixed cable to a fixed load.

The fact that its a 30A rewirable makes it a bit worse - we all know of DIY bob, who`ll put in another 10 sockets, all spurred from this one - using gawd only knows what cable.

But - if it was spurred from an immersion circuit that was in use - I`d be looking to disconnect it - it doesn`t belong there!

Again, we come back to DIY Joe. We`ve all met him - he`s thicker than a brick.

What will he do when a fuse keeps blowing, or he doesn`t have the right size fuse / fuse wire? Put a bigger one in.

Yes, properly constructed and used fittings will minimise the risk - but people still buy the cheap tat because "its a bargain" We`ve seen pics on here of plugs, sockets, cables, MCBs etc that don`t comply, or are blatant, dangerous rip-offs.

Spur from a ring? If you must - the BGB allows it (at the moment) - that doesn`t mean I like it, condone it, or have to do it.

KME

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Well if we are intending to keep the socket outlet there then we need to assume some max demand figures for the circuit to asses if the supply cable is big enough...

Guidance in the on site guide suggests first 10A of the cooker rating + 30% of the remainder + 5A if socket outlet included in the cooker control switch..

So how much extra for another double socket on the circuit ..?

It could be argued that it could be another 5A per socket, so if it is a double outlet its another 10A on the max demand for this circuit..

or working things backards..

5A for the socket built into the cooker switch

10A for the double socket spurred off the 6mm

30A - 15A leaves us 15A of cooker power.. after diversity applied

So before diversity....

10A of this cooker power would be @ 100% rating

5A would be @ 30% remainder rating..so 5A / 0.3= 16.66A

Total rated load of cooker must not be above 10A+16.66A = 26.7Amps Before diversitry..

27A x 230v = 6210watts

SO..

If the cooker is rated at 6.5kW or 7kW.. or maybe 8kW tops...

Possibly it could be argued that 30A circuit will do OK.. Is one way how I would suggest it could be evaluated.

Personally...

I would disconnect it..

and stick a blanking plate over the socket!

How are others justifying their circuit demand calculations??????

Guinness

Guinness

Guinness

 

[betty swollocks]

sorry spec I left my calculator

in my other van

 

[andy_spark]

I have had the same situation when doing a CU change, with a spur off the cooker switch supplying a socket to a utility room. I re-wired the socket to be spurred from the ring circuit and removed the old wiring, then billed the customer. This kept everyone happy as I advised the customer that it wasn't really right to spur sockets off the cooker circuit.

Personally I would re-wire it or failing that (ie. you won't get paid for it) disconnect the socket, and put in writing what you have done.

 

[Steve3948]

I have had the same situation when doing a CU change, with a spur off the cooker switch supplying a socket to a utility room. I re-wired the socket to be spurred from the ring circuit and removed the old wiring, then billed the customer. This kept everyone happy as I advised the customer that it wasn't really right to spur sockets off the cooker circuit.

Personally I would re-wire it or failing that (ie. you won't get paid for it) disconnect the socket, and put in writing what you have done.

I don't think you have the right to disconnect it, if its not your property, unless deemed Code 1 or 2, however it should be brought to the client's attention and recorded if found during EICR or other works and any recommendations you can offer to make it a better job.

 

[sellers]

edit* pressed post too quickly!

 

[sellers]

I wouldn't disconnect it, it would be silly to!

In situations like this I imagine what I would code if it was an EICR! Is this really a C1, i think not?

 

[brummydave]

have a look at fig 15b, appendix 15

Thanks - but damn I left my regs at the site. Will check shortly!

 

[brummydave]

Disable and note it.

AndyGuinness

This was my initial thought.

 

[brummydave]

I wouldn't disconnect it, it would be silly to!

In situations like this I imagine what I would code if it was an EICR! Is this really a C1, i think not?

I am doing an EICR before changing the board and haven't decided what to code it as yet.

 

[ADS]

As the Regs don't take into account the use of a crystal ball.....and what might, or might not, be done in the future...........I think you are going to find it difficult to find a regulation that it contravenes, or a 'Reg Number' to support a code.

You have to ask youself, logically, what exactly you think is wrong with it.

 

[brummydave]

Have only just logged into the new forum so not sure why my posts aren't merged like they used to be. Anyway,

Thanks for all the discussion. Fascinating! And another great aspect of the interpretation our trade brings to situations.

If i'd got my OSG and BGB with me i'm sure I could pick more detailed reasoning, but from the top of my head...

As the cooker is 11kw and the diversity (with 5A socket) comes to 27A, that's one reason I'm loathe to leave the little twin and earth coming out the back of the cooker. What makes the spur worse I think is that the lounge socket will only be live when the cooker switch is on, so the likelihood of overloading is greater.

Another reason not to leave it is because the circuit is designed to supply one appliance and the addition has changed that.

I definitely won't code it c1 as it's not immediate danger. However as the cable is 24A rated and it's on a 30A fuse I think it should be a c2 as it is potentially dangerous and urgent remedial action is required.

My choice of remedial action has been made much easier by the discovery of a socket on the kitchen ring circuit in the other adjacent cupboard to the cooker. So wiring it in as a spur will be some but not too much effort. Yay!

If I wasn't doing any other works in the place and just simply the report, then I still think I'd code it a C2, disconnect the cable from the back of the cooker but leave the socket in place and advise the action.

ttfn.

 

[ADS]

As the cooker is 11kw and the diversity (with 5A socket) comes to 27A, that's one reason I'm loathe to leave the little twin and earth coming out the back of the cooker. What makes the spur worse I think is that the lounge socket will only be live when the cooker switch is on, so the likelihood of overloading is greater.

Overloading what?

However as the cable is 24A rated and it's on a 30A fuse I think it should be a c2 as it is potentially dangerous and urgent remedial action is required.

What cable is 24A rated?