Submersible Pumps Are Flawed

[Doc Hudson]

Nothing in writing yet. I'll probably quit first.

And no I'm not happy  using 240v on site. If someone is killed who's fault is it?

It comes back to the site manager at the end of the day. Some of the guys  handling the pumps  are foreigners  and are  unsure  about voltage.

Is it right  that they are supplied with  240 volt equipment?

I think you need to go back and read Health & Safety law, especially regarding your responsibilities. You must not undertake work procedures that could endanger Yourself or Others. By your own admission you have been undertaking unsafe practices. Inspecting suspect faulty equipment whilst still energized! Best to put your concerns in writing (to your boss Or the H&S executive) rather than moaning on the internet, if you serious consider lives are in danger.

Doc H.

 

[Swelper]

Some of you guys should make yourselves familiar  with this quote.....

The reason for 110-volt portable equipment on building sites is because the transformers are what is known as 'centre tapped'. This means that the voltage to earth is only 55 volts whereas the voltage to earth on a standard mains operated drill is 230. It's not the voltage that kills, it's the current, but as voltage is pressure, the more pressure there is the greater the current that can flow dependant on your resistance (less if raining and you're wet). Remember: "It's the volts that jolts but the mill's (milliamps, and you only need 50 of the little blighters) that kills". The HSE would have no qualms in prosecuting anyone who uses mains voltage equipment on a building site should an accident happen.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Some of you guys should make yourselves familiar  with this quote.....

The reason for 110-volt portable equipment on building sites is because the transformers are what is known as 'centre tapped'. This means that the voltage to earth is only 55 volts whereas the voltage to earth on a standard mains operated drill is 230. It's not the voltage that kills, it's the current, but as voltage is pressure, the more pressure there is the greater the current that can flow dependant on your resistance (less if raining and you're wet). Remember: "It's the volts that jolts but the mill's (milliamps, and you only need 50 of the little blighters) that kills". The HSE would have no qualms in prosecuting anyone who uses mains voltage equipment on a building site should an accident happen.

And you are knowingly using the equipment, yet have raised no formal concerns with those asking you to use it?

Doc H.

 

[Swelper]

I think you need to go back and read Health & Safety law, especially regarding your responsibilities. You must not undertake work procedures that could endanger Yourself or Others. By your own admission you have been undertaking unsafe practices. Inspecting suspect faulty equipment whilst still energized! Best to put your concerns in writing (to your boss Or the H&S executive) rather than moaning on the internet, if you serious consider lives are in danger.

Doc H.

I think you  need to learn to read  doc.

The pump was supplied  by the site manager. Other workers  have been using this pump  employed  by the  site manager. I'm   subbed in doing  formwork joinery  and supply no equipmemt  to workers.

All my tools are  110v. I'm a one man band.

I have made  several   complaints to the site manager  regarding the pump/s as I believe this is my duty. I did'nt  know I had to do it in writing though. 

Now tell me doc    where have I been  undertaking  unsafe  practises?

 

[sellers]

A quote stating the phrase 'little blighters' isn;t really a regulation.

Taken from HSE website

Managing electrical risk during refurbishment work
A number of electrocutions involve workers who are not electricians
but who are carrying other works, such as plumbers and joiners. These
incidents could be reduced by:

•          Understanding the system
          Those responsible for planning and managing refurbishment work must
  understand the electrical system of the building in which the work
  takes place and liaise with the building occupier.
  
          This will enable building work to be planned and managed so that
  the integrity of the electrical system is not compromised and the
  workforce remains safe.
  
      
•          Working dead
          Relevant parts of the electrical system should be isolated if the
  refurbishment work, e.g. labouring, joinery, or plumbing, is liable to
  disturb or damage the existing electrical system and expose people to
  electrical danger.
  
      
•          Portable electrical equipment
          Tools, plugs and cables designed for DIY and domestic use are not
  suitable for site conditions. You should use cordless tools or those
  that operate from a 110V centre tapped to earth (CTE) supply system so
  that the maximum voltage to earth does not exceed 55V.
  
          Regularly inspect power tools and take them out of service if they
  are damaged. Tools should be serviced by qualified electricians. Do not
  do makeshift repairs.
  
      
•          Residual current (trip) devices
          Where mains voltage (230v) is used, the risk of injury is high if
  equipment, tools, or leads are damaged or there is a fault. 230v
  equipment should be visually checked for damage every shift, have a
  visual inspection every week and have a combined inspection and test
  before first use on a site and then every month - ideally records of
  these checks should be kept. An RCD is a device which detects some, but
  not all, faults in the electrical system and rapidly switches off the
  supply.
  
          RCDs must be properly installed and enclosed; checked daily;
  treated with care; kept free of moisture and dirt; and protected against
  vibration and mechanical damage.
  
      
•      Lighting systems
      Protect cabling and bulbs against breakage. If a bulb breaks, the
  exposed filament may present a hazard. Have a system for checking bulbs
  regularly to maintain electrical safety and to keep the site well-lit.
  
     

 

[Doc Hudson]

I think you  need to learn to read  doc.

The pump was supplied  by the site manager. Other workers  have been using this pump  employed  by the  site manager. I'm   subbed in doing  formwork joinery  and supply no equipmemt  to workers.

All my tools are  110v. I'm a one man band.

I have made  several   complaints to the site manager  regarding the pump/s as I believe this is my duty. I did'nt  know I had to do it in writing though. 

Now tell me doc    where have I been  undertaking  unsafe  practises?

From your opening post:-

We use electric submersible pumps a lot to pump water from underground tanks on building sites. Our current one is 240 volt and a while back it stopped working and it was hauled out of the hole and three of us proceded to examine it and it suddenly without warning gave off a loud flashbang. This was in the pouring rain. ):

Either you are using them or you are not? If its not your problem, walk away. If it is you problem deal with it though the correct channels in writing. Or are you hoping to get you boss to read the forums posts?

Doc H.

 

[Swelper]

The site manager  uses the   pumps to clear water from holes. The workers  are lumbered with  240 volt equipment  by the site manager.

Who is at fault?

Should all the workers  just walk out?  And  then have no job?

I have made several complaints  but falls  on deaf ears.  Why is  the site manager  trying too kill his workers?

When  I say "examine" the pump  that  means  checking for dirt  in the inlet  holes.  Thats about it.  All I'm qualified for. Rest of the time I'm swinging an estwing hammer.

The last two days  I've been  dishing flood water  from  underground  holes with  a bucket. But at least I'm alive  eh?

 

[sellers]

If you are using them to clear from footings and foundations I would say yes, 110v

But in your opening post you stated they were used in tanks?  Which I pressume would be more like fixed equipment and would be more enclined to think 230v equipment would be ok (if installed correctly)

 

[Swelper]

Slurry tanks  for  cow manure.  Which are shuttered with  formwork. Underground work and yes foundations also.

 

[Apache]

You clearly have a bee in your bonnet.

Just over a year ago I became 'boss' rather than employee. The more you look at health and safety you come to realise that those in charge can only do so much. The employee has to take measures to protect themselves and other workers. Somewhere there should be a copy of the 'Health and Safety Law' poster and this is one of the first things it tells the employee.

Your boss has the responsibility of making sure what they provide is safe, and then to inspect and maintain that equipment as often as a risk assessment deems necessary. So long as that is been done then the people actually using the equipment have to point faults out if they cause or discover them.

Telling your boss something verbally means very little, it is hearsay. If you write it down then you have a defence and something to refer to.

Electricity is not dangerous. It only becomes so when used inappropriately. 230V is not intrinsically dangerous. A bloody great lump of a transformer could pose more of a hazard.

 

[Sharpend]

Swelper, the way I see this is you have come here for advice and received some great advice at that, so your choices are to follow the advice or see here http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/index.htm and ask for their advice.

Other than that look for a new job?

 

[Steve3948]

Swelper has said he's a subby chippy working on site, however the site manager is providing pump equipment to enable his men and the subby contractors to form shutter work, so if H&S visited site they would shut it down due to 230V equipment being used on a construction site, this impacts on Swelper as he has no work if this happens, so he advises site manager of the situation and nothing is done. Its a tough call and I would supply my own 110V pump as a subby.

 

[ProDave]

I'll say it again as you keep missing the point.

A miss handled 110V pump with a damaged cable would go bang in much the same way as a 240V one.

Insisting your employer changes to 110V is NOT the solution.

Proper handling of the equipment, and a quick visual check before deploying the pump each time is what's needed.

 

[Steve3948]

Your point is valid Dave, but there are many issues here not just one.

Yes, it should not be handled until isolated.

However 230V should not be used on construction sites IT'S NOT ALLOWED period.

Insisting the main contractor uses 110V IS THE ANSWER to start with, then proper site safety thereon.

 

[ProDave]

I agree 110V is safer if someone comes into contact with a live wire, which given the way these pumps are handled, seems quite likely.

But the gist of the thread seemed to me the pump went bang BECAUSE it was 240V and it would have been okay if it were 110V, which simply is not the case.  It would have gone bang even if it were a 110V pump.

So a letter to the boss is needed to point out:

The pumps should be 110V

The pumps should be regularly inspected and tested (PA Testing)

The operatives will give the cable a quick visual inspection before each use, and any that appears to have a damaged cable, or does not have a current PAT label, they will refuse to use.

The pumps should have a length or ROPE attached, and the rope should be used to lower them into and pull them out of the trench, NOT the cable.

Yes in the real world, the site foreman is likely to get a monk on if you tell him the pump is faulty and you refuse to use it, but that's HIS problem for not ensuring it's safe, and for not having a spare one to give you while the faulty one is fixed or replaced.

But to the OP, you are there as a joiner. So YOU don't need to touch the pumps, let someone else do that.  Of course you can only do your job if the trench is dry, and it's the site foreman's problem to ensure that, not yours.

 

[Steve3948]

+1 to that Dave.

 

[Sidewinder]

240V equipment IS allowed on construction sites.

Under certain circumstances, as is 400V equipment.

I will not pass judgement on the pump as I don't have enough information, except to say that if the pump is being raised and lowered by the cable then that is incompetent &, that a carpenter should not be fault finding on faulty electrical pumping equipment.

This is not specifically the carpenters fault, and is a failing under MHSWR among other statute laws.

 

[Swelper]

I'm not a carpenter. I'm a formwork joiner. Less skilled  but much higher pay.

And no  I wasn't  fault finding  on the pump.

As I've already stated   the pump was hauled out on this occasion  because it had stopped pumping  and the hole I was in was flooding   and it was thought it  had become blocked  as they regulary do  with sludge  and sand  deposits. The pump  has a rope  and most  times I see  the guys haul it around with that. On this occasion it was hauled out by the rope.

Does  it follow  that   if the  cable was never  pulled that it would never  fray  or break?  How many of you have power tools  that   stop working  and then you find out  the cable has  broken  inside the cable close to the handle?

Festool  power tools  (of which I have many  btw)  have a plug-it cord. Which means  if the cable breaks  no tampering inside  the machine has to be carried out. Clever people  the Germans.

I'll bet  they have a  building site  submersible  pump designed that  way.

Prodave seems to think  I think  110 volt  cables don't snap. The point is when  they do  you are unlikely to get killed.

 

[steptoe]

I'm not a carpenter. I'm a formwork joiner. Less skilled  but much higher pay.

And no  I wasn't  fault finding  on the pump.

As I've already stated   the pump was hauled out on this occasion  because it had stopped pumping  and the hole I was in was flooding   and it was thought it  had become blocked  as they regulary do  with sludge  and sand  deposits. The pump  has a rope  and most  times I see  the guys haul it around with that. On this occasion it was hauled out by the rope.

Does  it follow  that   if the  cable was never  pulled that it would never  fray  or break?  How many of you have power tools  that   stop working  and then you find out  the cable has  broken  inside the cable close to the handle?

Festool  power tools  (of which I have many  btw)  have a plug-it cord. Which means  if the cable breaks  no tampering inside  the machine has to be carried out. Clever people  the Germans.

I'll bet  they have a  building site  submersible  pump designed that  way.

Prodave seems to think  I think  110 volt  cables don't snap. The point is when  they do  you are unlikely to get killed.

you back to whoever told you that and smack them,!

 

[steptoe]

Im auditioning for the 4th member of ZZ Top next weekend,