Thoughts on 'fast-track' courses

[stevo100]

Hi guys, new to the forum and all that.

I'm hoping to train as an electrician at the age of 36. I've worked as a tree surgeon since my teens and finally made the decision to do something different. A couple of mates of mine are in the trade and work for a small firm, they both encourage me to do it but neither has any experience of working with trainees who haven't come through by a traditional apprenticeship.

Since I can only realistically enter the trade via one of these 'fast track' course providers, I was hoping to get some feedback from people who have experience of entering the trade by this method or anyone who has worked with people who got into the trade this way.

I am under no illusion that these courses will make someone an electrician over the course of a few months, and it will of course take a few years to become fully competent. I also understand that I will be taking a cut in income to begin with, and may end up earning similar amounts to what I currently earn.. My motivation isn't for financial reasons, I genuinely want to do something different that requires more mental stimulation. I'm a hard worker by nature and happy to revert to being a trainee for as long as it takes.

What are your thoughts? Are these courses a waste of time, or do they work out well for certain people?

Also, if anyone can recommend a course provider (preferably in the London/Essex/Herts area but not essential) that would be great!

Thanks in advance, any input would be greatly appreciated

 

[Sharpend]

These courses are totally useless to someone in your position, but feel free to spend your money

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

What are your thoughts?  Are these courses a waste of time, or do they work out well for certain people?  

They work out ok for the people they were originally designed for...….

Electricians who have been working for many many years, but have not kept their qualifications up to date...

They were never designed or intended as a means of training for complete fresh new-starters into the industry...

Hence they generally tend to be very focused on the regs.. (easy to teach..) 

But skip chunks of the fundamental science and theory that underpins the basics of electrical understanding...

such as how to actually calculate values and understand what they actually mean when verifying if something is compliant and/or safe to use...

So most of the fodder that comes through the fast track route, hasn't got a clue when they encounter a real electrical installation, that was installed to a different edition of BS7671...

and they automatically assume because it is not to the same edition that the fast-track course used, then it must be illegal, dangerous, and in need of immediate rewire!

Too many of these short course companies are just "Bums-on-seats", to "Get-the-cash-from-your-wallet" merchants....

They are more than happy to teach you any irrelevant electrically sounding qualifications that they know will not give you any leg-up to your goal.

What are you aiming for?

Own business...?

Labourer on site work...?

Employee / Sub-Contractor..?

etc..

etc..

You really needed to work out exactly what qualifications you need for the area of work you are aiming for...

Then find somewhere that can teach those qualifications you need.. (not what they can sell)..

Or you will just find you are a lot of cash lighter..

with a few useless paper qualifications....

But no-one interested in employing you as there is a massive pool of better qualified and experience electricians out there to pick from...

Guinness

 

[Sharpend]

Well put Specs, it was what I was going onto say however got pulled away and didn’t get to finish.  

 

[binky]

you'll make more money lopping trees, how about a change to chainsaw art?

 

[stevo100]

Fair enough, I thought this might be the case.

Since I'm not going to get an apprenticeship at 36, is it unlikely I could find a way into the trade at my age?

I was under the impression that I could get the City & Guilds L2 & 3 to provide me with enough knowledge to work as an Electricians mate, and eventually go on to get signed off with NVQ's?

 

[Blue Duck]

From what I've heard from the mates on site the fast track courses are getting worse (faster?).

The final practical for the lvl3 2365 has been dumbed down (t&e) and the faults on the fault finding part were just pointed out & you've passed!

This from a guy who took 6hrs to install a straight bit of conduit.

Also there are a lot of pointless "domestic installer"qualifications that will not be any use in the real world. 

Part pee and initial verification and the 2392 testing spring to mind.

You can study the 2365 at most local colleges, yes you'd either have to take time off or do it at night but it's better than being sent out into the world with  no idea.

Once you have the 2 & 3 then get some experiance and go for the NVQ3.

It's a tough world out there, building sites can be nasty places and the building trade is in bit of turmoil right now.

Stick with the trees IMO.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Just to add.....

Unless you have got some personal contacts in the trade to give you a start-up with practical experience and a company willing to take you under their supervision......

you have probably got about as much chance getting a job in the bank after doing a quick bookkeeping and finance course...

99.99999999999999999% of businesses, IF they are taking people on, tend to be looking for experience workers to improve the business, without excessive training and/or costly supervision to train someone.

By all means have a go and get some new qualifications...

But make sure you treat it much like a bet on a horse or buying a lottery ticket..

You may win a bit extra back...

OR..  you may just blow it and have no reward for your investment.

Do you work for yourself at the moment?

could you try running two jobs to see if electrical work is a possibility?

Then if it fails you can still go back onto the tree work...

What you are looking for is not impossible..

But it is not easy or a guaranteed banker!

and its not even a 50:50  chance either...

The odds are against you with NO previous experience...

when you look at the marketplace of potential candidates, who do have some electrical background...

e.g. Maybe just made redundant... need to top-up their qualifications...  then get back into the work place..

A far better choice for any electrical business than an ex-tree surgeon with very limited experience or qualifications.

Guinness

 

[Evans Electric]

We get many people on here asking the same question as yourself . Its actually a daunting  programme to follow .     Specs him speak many truths on subject.  

I'm an ancient so not up with today's qualifications  ,   however   I can assure you there far more required  now than in prehistoric times .  

Yes you won't get an apprenticeship ,  they  appear to be virtually non existent   ,  I saw one  fly over last year but someone shot it .    As Specs says , firms would want experienced tradesmen  ... much like me trying for a job as a tree surgeon ..."   I 'm looking for a tree surgeon  pal ... not an electrician "  

I believe theres a slow route by starting with an Electrician Labourer  card ,  get  loads of  experience ,  start getting the CORRECT qualifications   not paying a small fortune  for ones you don't need ...and work your way up   .  

It 'aint easy  but saying that , there seems to be lots of people  in the age range  late '20s   to middle 40s  trying to enter the trade .  

These short courses don't really produce an electrician .... today's apprenticeships are 4 years I think  plus a million qualifications   ...my own was 6 years because we left school at 15  and you didn't go "on the tools" until 21 .

Specs  of course left school at 9  and was sent up chimneys before becoming an apprentice with James Watt & Co.  :innocent

 

[stevo100]

Just to add.....

Unless you have got some personal contacts in the trade to give you a start-up with practical experience and a company willing to take you under their supervision......

you have probably got about as much chance getting a job in the bank after doing a quick bookkeeping and finance course...

99.99999999999999999% of businesses, IF they are taking people on, tend to be looking for experience workers to improve the business, without excessive training and/or costly supervision to train someone.

By all means have a go and get some new qualifications...

But make sure you treat it much like a bet on a horse or buying a lottery ticket..

You may win a bit extra back...

OR..  you may just blow it and have no reward for your investment.

Do you work for yourself at the moment?

could you try running two jobs to see if electrical work is a possibility?

Then if it fails you can still go back onto the tree work...

What you are looking for is not impossible..

But it is not easy or a guaranteed banker!

and its not even a 50:50  chance either...

The odds are against you with NO previous experience...

when you look at the marketplace of potential candidates, who do have some electrical background...

e.g. Maybe just made redundant... need to top-up their qualifications...  then get back into the work place..

A far better choice for any electrical business than an ex-tree surgeon with very limited experience or qualifications.

Guinness

Thanks for all the replies, as much as they're not saying what I hoped to hear, I'd rather know the true reality and I am taking it all on board.

In response to the questions asked, I do work for myself and I would have planned to continue tree work but only with the contracts I currently have.. And then work with my friends electrical firm as and when until the time came when I could work full time in the trade.  Admittedly I hadn't fully thought through the logistics of how this would work, but I could find a way of subbing some of my tree work when required.

Forgive me if I'm about to make myself sound stupid here  But as much as I have zero experience in the trade,  I have fitted kitchens and bathrooms in my current and previous properties before, which have included fitting an electric shower from scratch, extractor fans, spurring off the ring main for new sockets, added lighting switches etc.  The only times I paid an electrician was to replace an old fuse board with an RCD consumer unit and another was to have the electrics signed off before renting out my previous property.  I want to make it absolutely clear that I'm aware this doesn't make me experienced by any means!!  But I have a basic level of understanding and a certain level of common sense when it comes to doing things for myself, would that count for anything?

Ultimately I'm careful with any investment I make, so I'm not going to pursue something like this if it's a waste of time & effort.  But I have reached a point in life where I'm ready to find a new challenge, as much as I still like tree work I want to do something that requires a bit more aptitude.  The wife wants me to do a degree, I'm not loving that idea! Becoming a sparky seemed like a good idea.. I'll have to explore my options from here.

Thanks again!

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Forgive me if I'm about to make myself sound stupid here  But as much as I have zero experience in the trade,  I have fitted kitchens and bathrooms in my current and previous properties before, which have included fitting an electric shower from scratch, extractor fans, spurring off the ring main for new sockets, added lighting switches etc.  The only times I paid an electrician was to replace an old fuse board with an RCD consumer unit and another was to have the electrics signed off before renting out my previous property.  I want to make it absolutely clear that I'm aware this doesn't make me experienced by any means!!  But I have a basic level of understanding and a certain level of common sense when it comes to doing things for myself, would that count for anything?

Hello Steveo, please take the following post in the way I intend it...

I have absolutely zero knowledge of how good or bad you are..

And this is NOT a personal dig at you...

But the facts are:-

There are 1000's upon 1000's of builders, kitchen fitters, bathroom fitters, conservatory fitters, Keen DIY'ers, Blokes who have done work for a family friend or mate who is an electrician..

who have done and still do the exact type of work you describe...

And they think it is all safe and done properly because "It Works"...

I have lost count of the number of jobs I have had to put right for customers, after A.N.Other left something working but dangerous, with zero certificates and zero testing to verify if it was safe or not...

If any fool wants to risk their own life (or that of their family) by doing dodgy electrics in their own house..

That is their choice... and legally they can..

BUT.. any person taking money from a customer and still doing dodgy untested - un certified work is nothing more than a cowboy...

For a very long time now BS7671 wiring regulations have required ALL electrical work..

Including adding showers, sockets, moving lights etc.. etc..  to be properly tested AND certified to verify they are safe..

AND leave a paper trail with a signed declaration by the person doping the work..  Who will carry the can in the event of any later problems due to negligence.

The Above is the basic level of essential understanding needed before anyone even thinks about touching wires..

If you do not understand how to design, and test your circuit to ensure it will disconnect the power fast enough before killing anyone..

then you do not understand the basics.

If you really really  want to give it a try..

I think you need to plan a couple of years of running tree work and electrical training side-by side, to see if you really can grasp the maths and calculations of circuit design.

How good are you at maths and physics?

As I said before.

what you want to do is possible..

But for it to succeed it is a long slog over years Not months..

But then starting any business is an expensive gamble in the early years..

And if you are looking at working for yourself, you should also be aware that around two thirds of new start-ups fail within the first five years..

generally due to not properly understanding their target customer and/or the market competition. 

:coffee

 

[stevo100]

Hello Steveo, please take the following post in the way I intend it...

I have absolutely zero knowledge of how good or bad you are..

And this is NOT a personal dig at you...

But the facts are:-

There are 1000's upon 1000's of builders, kitchen fitters, bathroom fitters, conservatory fitters, Keen DIY'ers, Blokes who have done work for a family friend or mate who is an electrician..

who have done and still do the exact type of work you describe...

And they think it is all safe and done properly because "It Works"...

I have lost count of the number of jobs I have had to put right for customers, after A.N.Other left something working but dangerous, with zero certificates and zero testing to verify if it was safe or not...

If any fool wants to risk their own life (or that of their family) by doing dodgy electrics in their own house..

That is their choice... and legally they can..

BUT.. any person taking money from a customer and still doing dodgy untested - un certified work is nothing more than a cowboy...

BS7671 wiring regulations have required ALL electrical work..

Including adding showers, sockets, moving lights etc.. etc..  to be properly tested AND certified to verify they are safe..

AND leave a paper trail with a signed declaration by the person doping the work..  Who will carry the can in the event of any later problems due to negligence.#

Thanks specs, no offence taken at all.

Just to clarify, I wasn't implying that the work I have previously done was the right thing to do, or that I carried the work out to the same standard of an electrician.  It was more to explain that I have some (all be it very little!) understanding of the dynamics with basic installations.  I didn't articulate it too well, but I was questioning if having that basic previous experience would help when enrolling on a course, compared to someone who had never attempted any electrical work before.  For example, Blue Duck previously quoted a mate who took 6 hours to install a straight bit of conduit.. I don't want to blow my own trumpet, but I'd like to think I would be capable of working significantly quicker than that!  But I understand you can't necessarily comment without personally knowing me.

I know its not advisable to carry out electrical work without the relevant qualifications, and it still doesn't make it right - but I've always had a mate (who is qualified) check that its safe afterwards, and I had everything signed off before renting my house out.  I know it might all sound a bit cowboyish, I'm just explaining that I'm not completely irresponsible with it!  And I'd never consider doing electrical work for money unqualified.

Its just in my nature to give things a go myself when its my own property, within reason.. Hence the reason I left the consumer unit to a qualified sparks, and for the same reason I'll deal with most plumbing issues but I'll have a gas safe engineer for anything gas related.  By the same token, anyone who has a certain degree of common sense can use a chainsaw for small tree work,  but many jobs require qualified arborist.

I'm thinking accountancy may be more up my street anyway 

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Out of general curiosity,  have you ever looked at or read any of a copy of the wiring regulations?

it may be a useful exercise to borrow a copy or get an old cheap copy off ebay and see how much of it you can grasp?

The Regs have just changed again we are now on what is called The 18th Edition...

You may be able to get a cheepo copy of 17th edition to at least gain an understanding of some of the concepts..

e.g. the opening chapters relating to fundamental principals and definitions may give you an idea of if it looks completely alien to any previous impression you had?

opcorn

 

[stevo100]

Hello Steveo, please take the following post in the way I intend it...

I have absolutely zero knowledge of how good or bad you are..

And this is NOT a personal dig at you...

But the facts are:-

There are 1000's upon 1000's of builders, kitchen fitters, bathroom fitters, conservatory fitters, Keen DIY'ers, Blokes who have done work for a family friend or mate who is an electrician..

who have done and still do the exact type of work you describe...

And they think it is all safe and done properly because "It Works"...

I have lost count of the number of jobs I have had to put right for customers, after A.N.Other left something working but dangerous, with zero certificates and zero testing to verify if it was safe or not...

If any fool wants to risk their own life (or that of their family) by doing dodgy electrics in their own house..

That is their choice... and legally they can..

BUT.. any person taking money from a customer and still doing dodgy untested - un certified work is nothing more than a cowboy...

For a very long time now BS7671 wiring regulations have required ALL electrical work..

Including adding showers, sockets, moving lights etc.. etc..  to be properly tested AND certified to verify they are safe..

AND leave a paper trail with a signed declaration by the person doping the work..  Who will carry the can in the event of any later problems due to negligence.

The Above is the basic level of essential understanding needed before anyone even thinks about touching wires..

If you do not understand how to design, and test your circuit to ensure it will disconnect the power fast enough before killing anyone..

then you do not understand the basics.

If you really really  want to give it a try..

I think you need to plan a couple of years of running tree work and electrical training side-by side, to see if you really can grasp the maths and calculations of circuit design.

How good are you at maths and physics?

As I said before.

what you want to do is possible..

But for it to succeed it is a long slog over years Not months..

But then starting any business is an expensive gamble in the early years..

And if you are looking at working for yourself, you should also be aware that around two thirds of new start-ups fail within the first five years..

generally due to not properly understanding their target customer and/or the market competition. 

:coffee

I only just saw the bit added to the end of your post,

I fully appreciate your points with regard to starting a business.  I wouldn't even consider this route until I had plenty of experience and felt fully competent, but it would certainly be something I'd consider if I made it to that level.

One of the main things that attracted me to the trade is the maths and physics element, both being by far my strongest subjects. 

 

[stevo100]

Out of general curiosity,  have you ever looked at or read any of a copy of the wiring regulations?

it may be a useful exercise to borrow a copy or get an old cheap copy off ebay and see how much of it you can grasp?

The Regs have just changed again we are now on what is called The 18th Edition...

You may be able to get a cheepo copy of 17th edition to at least gain an understanding of some of the concepts..

e.g. the opening chapters relating to fundamental principals and definitions may give you an idea of if it looks completely alien to any previous impression you had?

opcorn

Can't say I have ever looked at it before, I have minimal understanding of it just through speaking with my friend who's in the trade.

that sounds like a good idea, I'll see about getting a copy. Your advice is much appreciated 

 

[Blue Duck]

Blue Duck previously quoted a mate who took 6 hours to install a straight bit of conduit.. I don't want to blow my own trumpet, but I'd like to think I would be capable of working significantly quicker than that!

To be fair to the chap, he'd never been shown how to do choob, (steel conduit)

Therefore he'd never measured, cut, or threaded before.

I tried to help him but had never even used an SDS and kept making schoolboy errors which took a while to undo.

He did however have a computer science degree!  :lol:

 

[phil d]

many years ago when I came out of my time people were more interested in skills, in all the years I was working I got asked for my qualifications twice. Most interviews either consisted of a bit of a chat followed by a walk around the site, to see how you reacted to stuff, (being shown a 5Hp motor and saying "wow that's big" is guaranteed to show you've never done the big stuff) or being asked a load of questions about stuff was the other way. I remember one interview, it was for a small local firm, "what size cable would you install for a 6Kw 3 phase load?"  he asked, I thought for a moment, pondering my reply, then , "it's 3Kw per phase" he added, sarcastically. "I'm fully aware of that" I replied dryly, "however, you have not specified, the length of run, or the environment, or any of a number of other variables" I answered. in the end I got the job. I worked as a maintenance engineer in a hotel, on my interview I had a walk around, I was being shown some air handling units, "don't worry about these, they're serviced by a contractor, in fact, they were done last week" I was told. I could hear a noise that didn't sound right and asked for a ladder, which was duly brought, I climbed up to the unit and opened the door using the service key I just happened to have in my pocket, one of the belts was slipping, obviously, it hadn't been serviced properly. I showed this to the maintenance manager and he was a bit annoyed they were paying good money and getting ripped off. I was actually offered the job there and then, but said I'd think about it. They rang me the following morning and I accepted the job, I ended up wearing a shirt and tie for that one, in fact, I was better dressed than the head of maintenance.

I repaired all kinds of faults and even took over jobs that had previously been done by outside contractors, saving them £3k one day, the previous maintenance engineers were no more than keen diy'ers and they were pleased that I could actually sort stuff out.I wanted an extra £1 an hour after I'd been there a couple of months, but the general manager wouldn't pay it, said the rate was set by head office, so I handed in my notice. A week later head office rang and asked why I'd left, when I explained the reason, they said he could have paid me more, but, the less he paid out, the bigger his end of year bonus! No wonder he couldn't get good staff.

The problem these days is people seem more interested in what bits of paper you have rather than experience, I worked with one lad, "he's very clever, got university papers and everything" my boss told me, for all the good he was on the tools he might have well used his papers as bog roll!

 

[stevo100]

To be fair to the chap, he'd never been shown how to do choob, (steel conduit)

Therefore he'd never measured, cut, or threaded before.

I tried to help him but had never even used an SDS and kept making schoolboy errors which took a while to undo.

He did however have a computer science degree!  :lol:

And thats why I don't want to do a degree! 

 

[Murdoch]

I think the whole issue of "fast courses" is that the candidates end up with a few bits of paper .............. however without relevant hands on experience, you will struggle to do some of the most basic tasks....

I know a chap who's daughters boy friend has just spent a sum of money on one of these courses ................. so has the paper .............. but his previous hands on experience in a warehouse moving boxes means he struggles with basic tools ................... theres more to this than meets the eye

Courses suggesting future salaries are, IMHO, mis selling UNLESS the courses include many months, if not years practical experience

Just saying

 

[phil d]

I think the whole issue of "fast courses" is that the candidates end up with a few bits of paper .............. however without relevant hands on experience, you will struggle to do some of the most basic tasks....

I know a chap who's daughters boy friend has just spent a sum of money on one of these courses ................. so has the paper .............. but his previous hands on experience in a warehouse moving boxes means he struggles with basic tools ................... theres more to this than meets the eye

Courses suggesting future salaries are, IMHO, mis selling UNLESS the courses include many months, if not years practical experience

Just saying

Exactly, they're a rip off, unless you already know what you're doing, last year I was talking to a bloke who'd done one of these courses and he was saying he got asked to do a job but couldn't work out how to isolate a light to replace it, in the end he told the client to ring another electrician!

As for the claims made about how much an electrician earns, it's a load of garbage, earnings are based on supply and demand. As we all know, these days not only are there loads of electricians about, and I use the term electricians loosely, but a lot of people are not doing as much work as they did, so obviously if less people are doing alterations, then there are less people needing electricians, and since the number of electricians is growing, prices will fall.

Last year I was asked for a price on a job and the customer said I had no chance, another guy had quoted less for the full job than it was going to cost me for materials! If you ask me it's a race to the bottom at the moment and the only winners are those who run these courses, what really winds me up is when someone loses their job, has a family and a mortgage and can't find another job, so, in panic they invest their redundancy in one of these courses believing it will solve their problems. Sadly, several months, and several thousand pounds later, they find out that they are still out of work, and now have less money.