Urgent Advice Needed On First Fixing Garden Lighting For Customer

[avinnovations]

Hi, I'm new to the forum; my name is Chris. I run an Audio Visual business based in Berkshire. Please feel free to message me with an AV related questions and I will do my best to help!

I wondered if I would be able to ask some advise on exterior garden lighting ... I am doing a big AV job for a lovely customer at the moment. She has had, and is still having, a nightmare with her current builder. I would be all day telling you all about it but the build is a year over due and all monies were demanded up front. Furthermore for every additional thing the customer wants doing she is being charged extortionate amounts of money!

The builder's "recommended" electrician, for example, quoted over £3000 for an alarm system I installed for £350! And so on ...

So she has asked my advise on outside lighting. The garden is currently being landscaped and so we are running out of time to get cables in; naturally the builder is trying to capitalise on this by quoting ridiculous prices to get their guy to install.

I am not Part P qualified so will not be able to do the job myself, however I want to help give the customer more time to find a reasonably priced electrician. My plan would be to first fix the cables in this weekend so that a qualified sparky can second fix the lighting and connect everything up at the end.

So here is what she would like:

- About 20 to 25 post / bollard lights along paths, flowerbeds etc

- 10 to 20 recessed decking lights

- Spot / spike flood lights to illuminate a water feature

Now my understanding is that she will need a 2.5mm 3 core armored cable run from the fuse board on a separate RCD to some sort of distribution / junction block in the shed?

Then would I need to run an individual cable from the junction in the shed to each of the 20-25 post lights. Or would I be able to run a cable from the shed (for example) to light 1, then to 2, then to 3 then to 4 and so on in series? Or finally run the cable from the shed to light 1, 2 ,3 all the way to 25 and then return that cable back into the shed like a ring main of power sockets?

The deck lights could be run back to a spur of the sockets in the house.

That's about where I am up to! I am fine with network cables, phone, coax, AV anything like that .. basically electrical is fine but my head is swimming a bit!!

I just want to get all the cable in for the electrician so there is no digging up etc to be done.

Thanks!

 

[M107]

How are you proposing to switch the lights, and where will the switch or switches be located?

From house consumer unit to shed if your dropping in a cable put 6mm or bigger in and put a consumer unit in the shed    I bet the customer will request a few sockets out there.

From shed cu (via your method of switching) loop in loop out of each bollard, or spur off to bollard from a pratley box or similar joint method.

No RCD at house end, tt the shed cu and rcbo all shed circuits..........you need to do some cable calcs.

Costs could run away from you if it isn't designed correctly.

 

[avinnovations]

Hi there, thank you for coming back to me; I know its getting quite late!

The customer is open to whatever is easiest or cheapest for an electrician to do. I guess she would prefer a switch inside the house; I'm running lots of cable via external trunking so could utilised this. I also think it would be fine to zone the lighting so not so much is running at once.

I could even just put ducting in for an electrician to put their own cables but I just don't know whether the lights all have an individual cable running back to a central point or if they are daisy chained in series.

I realise it will probably too hard to tell me which cable to run in due to lengths, output power of the lights etc .. it would just be great to get an idea of where to run ducting etc.

I assume one cable would come from the RCD fuse board and then to one location, such as the shed, into some sort of junction box? Or I have read it can be also be spurred off the ring main power sockets? But I thought with so many bollard lights it may not be safe to do that?

Any advise is much appreciated!!

 

[pewter]

With so many variables and options I think an electrician is needed to visit the site.

 

[avinnovations]

I agree, unfortunately the builder is a bit of a nightmare and has basically said it needs doing tomorrow as Saturday he is filling in all trenches and laying turf!

Basically he is in a mood as he won't get his commission as she isn't using his guy. Its a rubbish situation for the customer, she stupidly paid them up front with cash and just wants to get everything finished. Luckily she is not letting them take her for a ride as much as she did before!

I want to try and help where I can.

I was thinking that each 23w bollard light could be daisy chained together with say 3m of cable in between each light and then back to the shed? Would 1.5mm armored me able to do this? Would I be able to run 10 on one run or would it need to be less? I would like to install a lighting control system by one of my suppliers; Rako. So hopefully the switching would be by iPhone / iPad over wifi.

As a back up she would then be happy, I'm sure, with physical switches in the shed.

Thanks again

 

[M107]

Switching I would go down the wireless rf route............symphony or wisebox or easyswitch from luminite type thing.

 

[steptoe]

as has been said,

this is impossible to design or calc for on a forum,

it really does need someone on the ground, so to speak.

 

[kerching]

I would be tempted to just installa load of ducting, put cables in later.

At least if you have big enough tubing you have a chance of twiddling it a bit.

Once you bury cables you are stuck with the cores that you have installed

Just a thought.....needs a man on the ground as my superiors have said

 

[M107]

2.5mm................but I agree with pewter you need a sparks to visit site to measure up distances then do cable calcs.

 

[avinnovations]

I was thinking of the ducting route! But don't know where to run ducting from and to!!

Thanks all for your help, a site visit by a sparky would be great but we are on such a tight time scale. Wish I hasn't offered to try and help now, but feel so bad for the way the builder has treated the customer.

She is really worried that if she gets someone else round to quote and not get his guy in then the builder might get the hump and not do anymore work.

Nightmare situation that I seem to have found myself in the middle of lol

 

[Sharpend]

I'd go with our esteemed colleague Kerching here, you admit to having little knowledge of electrical design install etching so therefore the easiest most beneficial option is to put a few runs of ducting in 50mm would be sufficient, run from the shed too and along the line of the posts, as Kerch has suggested it can be tweaked when it comes to cable pulling. A separate duct in for the decking from shed, this way every thing can be switched from within the shed. I would also run a duct from shed to house, this would feed your supply cable and if needed allow for a switch for lights within house. It would have to be separate ducting to that of any av/data cables.

Naturally the best port of call would be to arrange a local spark to visit and they can assist you with where they would want the ducting to go.

Good luck.

 

[kerching]

Pit some 6mm poly rope in the ducting as you install it.

Leaving it until later will result, quite possibly, in tears and a gnashing of teeth

DO NOT TRY TO BE CLEVER AND PUT TWO ROPES IN ONE TUBE!.......this can cause unpleasantness

Do not ask me how I know!....lets just say that 40 years ago I was not as clever an apprentice as I thought!

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

With so many variables and options I think an electrician is needed to visit the site.

I agree, unfortunately the builder is a bit of a nightmare and has basically said it needs doing tomorrow as Saturday he is filling in all trenches and laying turf!

Basically he is in a mood as he won't get his commission as she isn't using his guy. Its a rubbish situation for the customer, she stupidly paid them up front with cash and just wants to get everything finished. Luckily she is not letting them take her for a ride as much as she did before!

I want to try and help where I can.

I was thinking that each 23w bollard light could be daisy chained together with say 3m of cable in between each light and then back to the shed? Would 1.5mm armored me able to do this? Would I be able to run 10 on one run or would it need to be less? I would like to install a lighting control system by one of my suppliers; Rako. So hopefully the switching would be by iPhone / iPad over wifi.

As a back up she would then be happy, I'm sure, with physical switches in the shed.

Thanks again

Way to many unknowns...  as Pewter says!!!

Now on the face of it you say you agree....

But then you say "Unfortunately the builder etc. etc..."

Sorry..  But either do it right or you are getting just as bad as the builder

and are more than likely going to create another botch-up nightmare where the garden electrics never works how the customer had hoped it would work...

THEREFORE..

Tell the builder he is NOT permitted to do any further garden work until the electrical work has been design and installed... 

Remember who's land it is...  and

It is the builder WORKING FOR THE CUSTOMER.

Not the customer working for the builder

Don't let the tail wag the dog!   SIMPLES!!!

If the builder won't accommodate your requests then tell him to leave and get a better builder. 

To seriously think that an outdoor electrical design can be done overnight via the internet by complete strangers with no site visit or scale drawings or plans..

Or any knowledge of the existing installation or its condition loadings / earth arrangements etc..

is pushing naivety to the limits I think.

I am guessing you haven't got this "Other" electrician who is going to do the second fix, testing and signing off of your work organised yet?

I would suggest it is him who you need to speak to about what cable sizes, protective devices and switching arrangements he/she will be happy with, to sign a BS7617 certificate with their company name on.

as they will be carrying some liability for any dodgy or dangerous, non compliant work, should things go belly up at a latter date!

Internet and forums are very good....

(especially this one!!!)

But a bit of reality AND common sense has to be included as well.

Guinness

 

[avinnovations]

"If the builder won't accommodate your requests then tell him to leave and get a better builder"

She has paid him all upfront in cash as he refused to carry on working until she did. So it's all very well saying to remember who's property it is etc etc but she is not in a position to argue. The builder has capitalised on her vulnerability.

I said I would look into it for her, NOT that I would do it. I have been blessed with plenty of common sense thankfully. And I am a nice person that is trying to help out a very distressed customer that is quite frankly at the end of whatever tether she has left.

Thank you all for your input, I will relay this back to her and I guess its looking like solar lights will be the way forward. The reason I asked the question is to understand what I can do to help one of your fellow electricians, for example to lay ducting. Don't see why I come under fire for trying to make life easier for another tradesperson.

Anyway thanks again for all your help, as I said I will install solar lights for her. I hope you are all okay with that? Take it I don't need to be qualified or have common sense to install them?? 

 

[kerching]

I would still try to get some ducting in, seriously!

If it does not get used then all that is wasted is a bit of time and some plastic.

If it is not put in then there could be an awful lot of digging to let the customer get what they thought they would be getting, if that makes sense

Just trying to do a damage limitation excercise

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I said I would look into it for her, NOT that I would do it. .....

 I asked the question is to understand what I can do to help one of your fellow electricians, for example to lay ducting. Don't see why I come under fire for trying to make life easier for another tradesperson.

Anyway thanks again for all your help, as I said I will install solar lights for her. I hope you are all okay with that? Take it I don't need to be qualified or have common sense to install them?? 

Sorry but from your opening post it does read as though you want to get all the correct cables in???

e.g.

My plan would be to first fix the cables in this weekend so that a qualified sparky can second fix the lighting and connect everything up at the end......

Now my understanding is that she will need a 2.5mm 3 core armored cable run from the fuse board on a separate RCD to some sort of distribution / junction block in the shed?

Then would I need to run an individual cable from the junction in the shed to each of the 20-25 post lights. Or would I be able to run a cable from the shed (for example) to light 1, then to 2, then to 3 then to 4 and so on in series? Or finally run the cable from the shed to light 1, 2 ,3 all the way to 25 and then return that cable back into the shed like a ring main of power sockets?

The deck lights could be run back to a spur of the sockets in the house.

I just want to get all the cable in for the electrician so there is no digging up etc to be done.

 

you are not coming under fire for trying to help someone....

It is just that your opening question is unrealistically complex for the timescale you need answers for....

this is why it appears to show a lack of understanding which could be interpreted as naivety or lacking common sense.

Unfortunately it is not uncommon on forums for someone to think they are being got at because they don't get the answer they were hoping to get..

Step back a minute and look at the bigger picture:-

If someone makes a bad decision and purchases some dodgy goods or services from a supplier..

and they do not get the goods on time or at a reasonable quality....

Then the customer does have the option to cut their losses and try and pursue reimbursement through legal avenues...

(Trading standards and consumer laws can be pursued to claim against a supplier

Sale of goods act 1979

Supply of goods and services act 1982)

OR they can just keep paying more money to the dodgy supplier hoping it will all come right in the end

Either way the customer can still tell the builder to stop or postpone work for a period of time...

If they choose not to..

and keep doing further work without correct design or planning...

it is just as daft as paying up front to begin with.

From my experience the best common sense course of action is either

1/ Don't do the work..

2/ Or do it correctly...

As a rushed botch jobs general come back to cause grief later.

The facts of what was or wasn't done in the past..

(your say this builders work has been going on for over a year)..

should carry no influence on how you design new stuff!

 

[M107]

Your not coming under fire as in having a go at you, but qualified & competent electricians are trying (politely) to tell you get a sparks in as it will save you getting your fingers burnt if this isn't your normal line of work.

You have been given some ideas that we may have used, but again without seeing the site all ideas of circuit make up & design are quite rankly pie in the sky.

The problem is what you think of as helping a fellow tradesman out, nine times out of ten becomes a problem for an electrician & can sometimes add a cost to the customer

• you put in multi-cables to switches, I then have to bell them out to find out what switches what.
• As said cable calcs & circuit design cant be done with the limited info given (I posted 2.5mm but that hasn't taken into account the distance from the shed to final point of the circuits & a multitude of other factors, 1.5mmmay suffice who knows I've not seen the job)
• Unfortunately you may be hard pressed to get an electrician to issue an EIC for cables he/she hasn't laid.
• I suspect most decent electricians (myself included) at present will not sign off for part P notification on 3rd party works.

Very commendable of you wanting to help out a customer, but with the time scale you have, a problematic builder & the above comments maybe just dropping some ducting in would be best.

Sorry you seem to feel we have let you down or had a dig at you by not telling you to crack on without doing any sort of cable calcs or site assessment & advised you to get somebody in, but personally I don't know too much about AV (cant be to difficult after all a cable is a cable right?) & if I asked a question I would like to think you would give me the correct answer rather than "yes crack on it might be ok" type of answer.

 

[steptoe]

on the subject of AV , can someone tell me the letter configuration for a mini HDMI,?

I need a mini to micro converter, I know a normal HDMI is A , and a micro is D , is mini C ? or what is B , ?

:C