Using none manufactures parts in CU's re (segregation of lighting circuits and rcd protection)

[Doc Hudson]

I've just spent a dull 20 minutes reading the MK technical brochure with installation instructions. At no point do the instructions say to only fit MK breakers in an MK board. The characteristics are given for the breakers, but at no point does it specify only to fit in an MK boardhttp://www.free-instruction-manuals.com/pdf/p3265650.pdf

Now I understand it would contravene the regulations if it did, but you find it written down in black and white for me!

The implication is the MCB would function as described in any environment, not just an MK enclosure

I think you will find the MK instructions are with the MCB or RCD or RCBO or Main switch. Some wording like, "For use in a Sentry Consumer unit". Which implys it is not for use in other manufactures units.

Doc H.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I've just spent a dull 20 minutes reading the MK technical brochure with installation instructions.

Well don't spoil the ending ...

Deke has promised to read me that as my bedtime story next week.....

But we are still finishing the Legrand power distribution book at the moment!!!

Online catalogue - LEGRAND

Its got some good pictures! :Blushing

 

[Apache]

I think you will find the MK instructions are with the MCB or RCD or RCBO or Main switch. Some wording like, "For use in a Sentry Consumer unit". Which implys it is not for use in other manufactures units. Doc H.

Well Doc I have ordered a cheap MCB from CPC with another order and I will see if it specifies the board and let you know.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Forgot to say.....

As Doc Hoodwink implied......

read this...



The box called

E SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS

bullet point 2..

The RCBO must be installed within a SENTRY Consumer Unit (select from the range of MK consumer units)

the above would be called...

"Manufactures Instructions"

and reg 134.1.1 is the one wot says..

Good workmanship AND manufactures instructions Blah Blah Blah.....

you get the gist..

that I guess would be part of Sideboards argument!

:C

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

BUT.....

I also know loads of MCB's dont come with any instructions at all ! ; \

Guinness

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 02:27 ---------- Previous post was made at 01:27 ----------

If I were kayak-kid...

I would be saying something like...

"You can Scoob me for that link...... Its the sheriffs badge bottom left...":x

But I could never comment like that!

:Blushing

:slap :slap:slap:slap:slap

 

[lkayelectrical]

Well Doc I have ordered a cheap MCB from CPC with another order and I will see if it specifies the board and let you know.

if pro elec I don't think they come with any paper work,

 

[ProDave]

I use a lot of the CPC Pro Elec stuff, and their MCB's and RCBO's don't have any instructions with them. All that it says on the box they come in, is a description of it's rating and that it conforms to EN61009

So there's nothing there to stop me using them in any CU they will physically fit into.

Where do we draw the line with this? Are you not allowed to put a Wylex MCB into a Volex CU, even though they come from the same production line in the same factory, just have a different name stamped on them?

Of course the REAL problem here is the standards. About the ONLY truly standard thing about MCB's is the dimension of the DIN rail they clip onto. The dimensions of the bit that pokes out the front seems loosly defined, but the termination details don't, which is why we have different manufacturers with different busbar heights, and the likes of wylex that use different busbar methods with the same MCB.

IF the standards were better defined, then every MCB would be identical dimensions, and every MCB would fit every board. That's the real problem.

My guess is manufacturers know there are differences. They know if someone fits the "wrong" mcb with the wrong busbar height it will not be right, and may even be dangerous due to a poor contact.

Now the manufacturers need to cover themselves. They could have said something like you can use any MCB you like as long as it fits, but that still leaves it open to interpretation what actually fits. So they have taken the safe way and said you must use their MCB's.

So personally (and this is not advising you to do the same) I am going to continue fitting "wrong" makes of MCB as long as they physically fit and the busbar heights match. If those criteria are met, then I personally am satisfied it will be safe.

 

[Apache]

Well Doc I have ordered a cheap MCB from CPC with another order and I will see if it specifies the board and let you know.

I hold in my hand the cardboard insert from the Pro-Elec 16A Type B MCB. On the front and back it says "To be used with Proelec Consumer Unites only"

Now I just have to hope the new xray machine will be ok on a B curve, as I'd have got a C curve one if they did them!

 

[Evans Electric]

Just to complicate things Sidey , what would the outcome of a claim be if Crabtree said we are not liable for damages because there are Steeple and Volex breakers in our enclosure. All of course made by Crabtree.

And what about when I ,as I often do, buy an enclosure and fit an RCD and two MCBs in it and call it a Garage unit.

Or the same for making up a shower supply , enclosure with dinrail and an RCD/ MCB in it ?

If the RCD failed its not caused by the enclosure .

 

[Sidewinder]

You ain't gonna get away from it Ladies & Gentlemen.

The issue is NOT BS EN 60898, for the MCB's but it IS BS EN 61439 which requires functional testing as an assembly for any and all permutations of consumer unit.

Thus the makers have clubbed together, see BEAMA bulletin and now preclude mixing.

This is for thermal and magnetic reasons.

I don't LIKE it either, but, I can't as yet, find a loophole in any of the arguments which you could use as a "get out of jail card".

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:58 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:56 ----------

Just to complicate things Sidey , what would the outcome of a claim be if Crabtree said we are not liable for damages because there are Steeple and Volex breakers in our enclosure. All of course made by Crabtree.And what about when I ,as I often do, buy an enclosure and fit an RCD and two MCBs in it and call it a Garage unit.

Or the same for making up a shower supply , enclosure with dinrail and an RCD/ MCB in it ?

If the RCD failed its not caused by the enclosure .

See my post following yours!

If you are making assemblies such as this they must comply with BS EN 61439, thus as the designer & manufacturer the responsibility for compliance with this standard falls on you.

 

[Manator]

I think most people have skirted around what your saying Sidewinder. The fact is this, any manufacturer will take responsibility for the use and construction of their boards, providing all componants are matched. If any faults are found and an "unmatched" componant is fitted, then the liability for the use, construction and viability of the complete board becomes the responsibility of the designer (you), and not the manufacturer.

 

[Sidewinder]

Quite M, also "you" are the manufacturer and thus the supplier and the responsibility for compliance with the LVD, the EMCD, PUWER98 (If in a workplace) & EAWR etc all falls on the poor spark!

 

[Evans Electric]

Well don't spoil the ending ...Deke has promised to read me that as by bedtime story next week.....

But we are still finishing the Legrand power distribution book at the moment!!!

Online catalogue - LEGRAND

Its got some good pictures! :Blushing

No Specs, next week its Harry Potter and the Electricity at Work Act.

 

[steptoe]

so, the next question is,

are we now no longer allowed to crimp cables within the CU on a board change?

I would imagine that falls into this category too, its not a cable, its an additional joint within their enclosure that they (probably) havent tested for.

soon it may be that the tails are specified an entry point and route allowed.

and folks wonder why cowboys abound in our trade, seems like Im one of the worst,

ProDave, you want to saddle up and ride out of this one MCB town beside me?

 

[ProDave]

ProDave, you want to saddle up and ride out of this one MCB town beside me?

Lets hold our heads high and ride out of town in style.

Back to the land of common sense, where engineers are allowed to make their own decisions based on good engineering practice, unhindered by bureaucratic nonsense.

I particularly liked Evan's post earlier about fitting MCB's in an enclosure. So now you can't fit an MCB into an enclosure, unless you buy the correct make of empty plastic box to put it into.

 

[Riggy]

I find, as a competent person, I am responsible for all work I carry out. I'm struggling to see how this is any different. Even capitalising certain words doesn't seem to help. I'm glad sometimes that I'm stupid, being clever looks awful stressful to me.

Still I bet all those electricians languishing in jail having been convicted of breaking STATUTE LAW (the forum spell checker capitalised that automatically!) won't understand how I can be so care free.

Maybe we should maintain a roll call on the forum - "lest we forget"

 

[wozz]

So how does this all stand with mcbs in control cabinets and panels have the manufactures allowed them to be used there? or RCDs in insulated enclosures (say origin of a TT system of the RCD manufactures enclosure can be used?

I dont mix and match never liked the idea and hate it when PV installers do it to my boards.

 

[sellers]

I can fully understand this, it does make sence, I imagine all sorts of testing goes on with these products before they go to sale. Changing the configuration and miss matching breakers could maybe have an effect in a way you probably would never think off.

So you get to a job with a board 25+ years go to the van and take out the mcb you stripped out of a job last year. Now your putting an already used component into this existing board. I'm sure theres a get out clause there for the manufactures. Can't really win.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

I posted the instruction page from a Wylex C/U recently on a similar thread. It states certain BS numbered breakers only that must be used, not manufacturers. It also did not state a torque setting but did say use Phillips No2 driver.

 

[Graham Lister]

Best close this thread please admin or we will all go to jail.

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/question-answer-board/4216-interchangeable-miniture-circuit-breakers-residual-current-device-bs-en-61008-s-etc-what-fits.html