Who says we don’t need fossil fuels?

[binky]

so what does 1.5oC mean to the world? A couple of articles for you-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45678338

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-is-half-a-degree-of-warming-really-such-a-big-deal-for-the-planet/a-57859167

 

[binky]

At the moment we are being "sold" the idea of EV's with the pretence that they can simply replace ICE cars and if we all swap to an EV we can just carry on as we were.  NO WE CANNOT.  If the electricity used to charge EV's is not all generated by renewable means, then all and EV has done is MOVE the pollution from your car to the power station.  So until we have a grid that is nearly all renewables, a large expansion of the number of EV's will not actually reduce CO2 by much.

the one advantage of this is carbon capture is easier at a power station. Personally I reckon the money would be better spent on installing free PV on houses - generation at point of use saves a lot of transmission losses. The one good thng baout battery cars, is that does help overcome some of the vagaries of green generation by providing storage. I'm not sure how far it has got, but part of installing smart meters is that it can allow 'smart charging' of EVs.

Misleading the public is NOT the way to make them comply. It is about time we were told the truth.  That we have to drastically restrict what we do, and what little we then still do, must be in EV's.  I find that very unpalatable, which is why my ethos is changing to "do as many things on the bucket list as soon as possible, while we still can"

I have increasingly felt like stuffing being green and helping create the disaster scenario that might get things moving. I don't see my retirement plans being completely restricted, but I do see what I want to do being done is a slower way. Overall we need to live a less materialisitic life, which suits me fine as I'm the sort of person who has t shirts that are 25 years old  :^O (used for work these days). 

 

[ProDave]

. Personally I reckon the money would be better spent on installing free PV on houses - generation at point of use saves a lot of transmission losses.

The trouble with Solar PV on houses is most working people are out when the sun shines and if they want to charge their car at home they do so at night.

I have long thought a huge untapped resource is solar PV covering the entire roof of offices and factories.  They are consuming power in the daytime so would be perfectly placed to self use what they generate and reduce demand on the grid, and help to charge all those employees EV's in the daytime at work.

 

[binky]

The trouble with Solar PV on houses is most working people are out when the sun shines and if they want to charge their car at home they do so at night.

I have long thought a huge untapped resource is solar PV covering the entire roof of offices and factories.  They are consuming power in the daytime so would be perfectly placed to self use what they generate and reduce demand on the grid, and help to charge all those employees EV's in the daytime at work.

I was thinking more about general energy use rather than EV in particular

The biggest waste of available roof space going - all down to landlords refusing permission to mount solar on the roof, yet if the roof needs replacing, it's the tennants problem.

 

[ProDave]

You won't get many private home owners paying for PV now with no FIT.  Most will not be able to make much use of what they generate if they are out at work all day.  I am in the minority installing PV on the new house without any FIT.  I did it partly because the self usage will pay for it in a relatively short time (being both only working part time helps greatly in that) and also for the extra SAP points it gives you, and am happy that my new house has achieved A94. 

You see a lot of new houses with 1 or 2kWp solar PV, I think that is because they build such otherwise lousy houses that it would fail SAP without a few "easy" points from the small PV array.

But I would have thought it would be a no brainer for commercial users to fit PV for self usage.

One encouraging thing here, the local swimming pool last year installed a massive ground mount PV system, I can see that working well to offset the cost of heating the pool.  Far better than just about all the schools that now have a wood pellet heating system because they have swallowed the greenwash behind that.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

You won't get many private home owners paying for PV now with no FIT. 

Even if a decent FIT was reintroduced... 

the majority of normal average homeowners would still find it well outside of their possible budgets to have a new PV installation...

As with EV..  many of those making the decisions about loads of Eco, Green, Solar solutions..

have little or know idea about how the average man/woman gets by on their monthly family budgets..

Because so many in politics have backgrounds from Eton & the like...

Spending an extra few tens of thousand pounds here and there for that new EV,  or having some solar panels,  or a heat pump installed,

is just a bit of pocket money for them...

But (depending upon which source you use)..  the average UK salary (2020/21) is somewhere around £27,000 to £31,000 ish..

Which in reality means most of the current climate solutions are still actually "Rich-Boys-Toys"..

AND.. as the UK is still relatively high up the rankings of global wealthy nations...

If the average person in a relatively wealthy nation cannot afford many of the green solutions...

Those in the less well-off countries don't stand much chance!!

As Binky pointed out Landlords, private & commercial are becoming major "key-holders" saying 'Y'es' or 'No' about who can do what!

We are in an an era where the average working man living with a partner who are both earning an average salary..

generally cannot easily afford to purchase their own home..

So they are restricted to renting and prevented from putting solar on the roof, installing a heat pump or EV charge point, or swapping the gas-guzzling boiler as its not their property..

Back in 1985 when me an Mrs SL got married...

we were able to take out a mortgage to buy an average home on our average salary.. 

(technically that was only allowed on 3.5x MY salary excluding overtime or any benefits)..

If the mortgage industry hadn't gone tits belly up, with the liberalisation of banking & building societies..

average workers would probably still be able to buy average homes..

and then possibly make more Green decisions themselves?

Reality is that no matter how green or 'carbon neutral' any particular solution is...

If the bulk of the population cannot afford to implement it, you are always going to be trying to swim upstream against the current.

And if those making the decisions have any fingers, directly or indirectly in the money pot... 

they are unlikely to make it more affordable and accessible for the average man in the street..

Guinness           

 

[binky]

A 4kw PV system parts inc VAT is down to around £2.2k add scaffolding at say £500 and installation of say £1k and that's around £3.7k installed. Price will vary from location to location, and slate roofs are roughly £500 more as you need different roof fixings and it takes longer to do properly. A 2kw system parts are £1200. It's a lot more affordable than it was, and without FiT there is no need to be MCS registered, so this is in the realms of DiY. The only legal requirment is to notify DNO of having installed a system. Exactly how long it takes to pay back the investment will depend on how the household uses electric. There's something like 20,million households in the UK, so if we budgetted £3k for a 2kW system on every property that is roughly £60 billion. Hinkley point nuclear plant is estimated to be £23 billion, but will take at least 10 years to build. 

Industrial units are cheaper to install PV on, most have trapezoidal sheet roofing which is easy and quick to fix to, and dont need more than scaffold access tower, a criminal waste of good roof space for high energy using business.

 

[binky]

But I would have thought it would be a no brainer for commercial users to fit PV for self usage.

One encouraging thing here, the local swimming pool last year installed a massive ground mount PV system, I can see that working well to offset the cost of heating the pool.  Far better than just about all the schools that now have a wood pellet heating system because they have swallowed the greenwash behind that.

Commercial PV tends to pay for itself in about 5-6 years

Woodpellets - the fashion for that comes from RHI payments, but the burners have proved troublesome in many cases. Wood is also seen a s C02 neutral, ie you burn a tree and replant  new ones to absord the emissions, but we lacking trees to burn. I have replaced 2 open coal fires with wood burners, but I get my logs from a guy who clears fallen trees off roads for Cornwall council. Wood that would otherwise go to waste.

 

[binky]

Which in reality means most of the current climate solutions are still actually "Rich-Boys-Toys"..

AND.. as the UK is still relatively high up the rankings of global wealthy nations...

If the average person in a relatively wealthy nation cannot afford many of the green solutions...

Those in the less well-off countries don't stand much chance!!

Guinness           

And the wealthy don't give a ****! So they buy second homes and run hot tubs. It's fair to say many of my customers for PV are quite well off / retired. With interest rates on savings being so low, Return on Investment for a PV system still runs at about 6-8%, so better than than an ISA. It's also fair to say any of these customers want to leave the planet in a better condition for their grandchildren.

There's a lot of noise form the poor countries for aid in going green as they wil probably suffer most from western waste. In countries with little / no infrastructure I can see off-gird energy as being quite cost effective to install as oppossed to installing a national power grid and building power stations. It's a subject I don't know that much about.

You're dead right about young people and mortgages though, I really don't know how young people manage to buy any form of house with wages having failed to keep up with house prices by a long chalk. I keep telling my son he would be better off moving abroad. 

 

[ProDave]

Latest government thinking.  EV chargers should be disabled from charging during the daytime peak demand https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e-car-chargers-will-turn-off-to-prevent-blackouts-jnm2m86pz

Sorry but I find that level of "control" unacceptable.  I would want to disable that "feature" even if it means an unofficial hack to the charger.

 

[Sharpend]

If they can’t offer a system 24/7 to be used at will doesn’t that go against their free market system? Are we slowly becoming communist? 

 

[binky]

If they can’t offer a system 24/7 to be used at will doesn’t that go against their free market system? Are we slowly becoming communist? 

I think we are a long long way of communist. Just smacks of 'no idea' planning or 'no real planning' and lack of investment in basic infrastruture of the UK. Scotland has installed lots of public EV charging points and I've not heard of any issues up there. 

 

[steptoe]

I think we are a long long way of communist. Just smacks of 'no idea' planning or 'no real planning' and lack of investment in basic infrastruture of the UK. Scotland has installed lots of public EV charging points and I've not heard of any issues up there. 

But, in reality, if a street of say 60 houses all went "green" and bought EVs, there is no way the infrastructure could withstand them all being plugged in to charge at 8pm, and then being unplugged at 7am, 

Which is one of the reasons, IMHO, that we have to install SPDs, 

And that's before the joints start blowing and transformers burning out. 

 

[Sharpend]

What happens when a family has more than one EV? do you have to book a time slot or take a ticket? 

 

[binky]

But, in reality, if a street of say 60 houses all went "green" and bought EVs, there is no way the infrastructure could withstand them all being plugged in to charge at 8pm, and then being unplugged at 7am, 

Which is one of the reasons, IMHO, that we have to install SPDs, 

And that's before the joints start blowing and transformers burning out. 

The EV chargers can be power limited, however, I'm far more in favour of hydrogen tech for this and other reasons we have discussed previously. It's also why I think the gov should encourage electric bikes and scooters rather than cars.

Out of interest, have you read any of the information links I posted? 

I am also of the opinion that discussion of climate change being man made is done and dusted, and what we should be discussing is the way forward in a practicle and cost effective way

 

[UNG]

some light reading for you climate change deniers.

I don't deny climate change, but I'm of the opinion that the science is focused too tightly on it being a wholly a man made problem without consideration for other factors that may / can have an influence on the overall effect

I am also of the opinion that discussion of climate change being man made is done and dusted, and what we should be discussing is the way forward in a practicle and cost effective way

So the blinkered focused science wins the day for you then

In terms of practical ways forward should we consider shutting the internet down due to the amount of energy it consumes, should we limit the how many times a person can change their mobile phone

I think the big problem is those who deny it is anything but man made problem when planetary evolution within our solar system has been having an effect on the Earth and the other planets within it for millions of years are totally ignoring the bigger picture. If you look at the planet we live on as technology has evolved we have accelerated the the redistribution of large lumps of the planet all of which must alter the stability of the gyroscope on which we live and then add into this the redistribution of people on the planet.

So the question is how long can a planet sustain life or does every planet and solar system have a finite lifespan

 

[UNG]

Even if a decent FIT was reintroduced... 

the majority of normal average homeowners would still find it well outside of their possible budgets to have a new PV installation...

If a decent FIT was reintroduced it would only push up the cost of the panels like it did previously

 

[binky]

I don't deny climate change, but I'm of the opinion that the science is focused too tightly on it being a wholly a man made problem without consideration for other factors that may / can have an influence on the overall effect

Good, if you read those links I posted they do a far better job of addressing the other factors and concerns than I can. There's something like 11,000 climate scientists who work on this, and other climate stuff, full time. As I said before, about 30/40 odd years ago the discussion was about whether or not some or all the curent climate change is man made or natural. The argument for it being man made won out eventually based on lots of studies and work and theories and confirming those theories as the best possible fit for the data and evidence collected. There's something about it in one of those articles. Oddly enough I was actually looking for climate change denier stuff when I found those, which is actually quite hard to find these days.

So the blinkered focused science wins the day for you then

In terms of practical ways forward should we consider shutting the internet down due to the amount of energy it consumes, should we limit the how many times a person can change their mobile phone

The thing about science is that it tends not to be blinkered, it always strives to find the truth as best as we can currently explain it, and that means looking at everything linked to the subject under study. Personally I think it's rather obvious that we are causing the problems and recent weather events are just really backing that up. I'm actually more interested in the environment in general as I am a bit of a nature lover (no I don't hug trees I'm not soft in the head :^O ) Climate change is very much part of that interest of mine.

Shutting down the internet and mobile phones is just 'gaslighting' rather than a serious argument. No one wants to go back to the Middle ages. Yes the internet uses loads of leccy, but so does a tumble drier or hot tub or my power tools or industry. Although they reckon Crypto currency mining is causing massive uses of energy and wiping out many of the CO2 savings made elsewhere, which is effing annoying.  Powering the internet from greener sources is what's needed, along with everything else we use energy for. As for phones, people sell on their old phones so it's not like they get thrown in a bin until they actually break. The only argument here is about consumerism. We need to stop listening to advertising and keep clothes longer, ignore fashion, and build products to last longer rather than living in  a wasteful throw away society. 

I think the big problem is those who deny it is anything but man made problem when planetary evolution within our solar system has been having an effect on the Earth and the other planets within it for millions of years are totally ignoring the bigger picture. If you look at the planet we live on as technology has evolved we have accelerated the the redistribution of large lumps of the planet all of which must alter the stability of the gyroscope on which we live and then add into this the redistribution of people on the planet.

So the question is how long can a planet sustain life or does every planet and solar system have a finite lifespan

No one is denying that many factors affect our climate, the argument is have we pushed the climate to change in a different and far more rapid way to normal. I think the second article from Skeptical science covers that

I saw something the other day about the weight of all the dams built to store water in the Northern Hemisphere has moved the earths tilt slightly. It was in an interesting programme about water and civilisations on the TV a few weeks ago which I can't remember the name of. If that is true, then it's definetly man made.

The planet will continue to sustain life in some form, we've had several planet changing catasrophies over the billions of years, like the one that wiped out the dinosaurs,  it's our society that will suffer most ( and a lot of plant and animal species).  I saw a comment about the last time the world had this much CO2 in the atmosphere, sea levels were 30m higher. I've not had time to go look that up, but 30m would drown an awful lot of cities and land. Fish would probably be happy though with all those artifical reefs to live in.  Ultimately, all planets are doomed, but hopefully ours will die about several billion years after I'm dead, when the sun supernovas. 

 

[binky]

very worrying reading, 2nd link is about who Chatham House are.

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2021/0...UJbaI_X1Xy-zpiOk5Xap4S4bgFRdrT4HjHsronlVRbU5g

https://www.chathamhouse.org/about-us

Locked to prevent being resurrected (again)