Who says we don’t need fossil fuels?

[UNG]

very few things have been as analised over and over again as climate change and it's current root causes, and by many, many different outfits.

So having been analised over and over it definitely is a load of then

 

[NozSpark]

One of the problems that we have with the current battery technology, is range.

Most of the BEV family car's being made at the moment just don't have enough!!!  250 to over 300 miles isn't enough for most of the population especially when most journeys are far less than 50 miles

....sarcasm ends....

I have to admit thought that there are only 1 or 2 BEV cars out there that can tow,, and even then their towing capacity is pretty poor; and the facts are that the tech for towing isn't there yet... maybe another technology like Hydrogen will be more suitable?.... the same goes for haulage, etc...

As for cost of running,,, we went to Birmingham (to see our daughter) a few weekends ago... over the weekend we did 267 miles,, starting off fully charged, topping up at the hotel and a very quick splash & dash (both for us, and the car).... after working out the figures, it cost us about £8 to cover those miles

 

[steptoe]

One of the problems that we have with the current battery technology, is range.

Most of the BEV family car's being made at the moment just don't have enough!!!  250 to over 300 miles isn't enough for most of the population especially when most journeys are far less than 50 miles

....sarcasm ends....

I have to admit thought that there are only 1 or 2 BEV cars out there that can tow,, and even then their towing capacity is pretty poor; and the facts are that the tech for towing isn't there yet... maybe another technology like Hydrogen will be more suitable?.... the same goes for haulage, etc...

As for cost of running,,, we went to Birmingham (to see our daughter) a few weekends ago... over the weekend we did 267 miles,, starting off fully charged, topping up at the hotel and a very quick splash & dash (both for us, and the car).... after working out the figures, it cost us about £8 to cover those miles

The range is nowhere near enough, no sarcasm needed, 

It may be fine for people that don't actually go anywhere, but in the real world it's lettuced. 

Manchester to Penzance, I can do that in one go in my van, about 6 hours-ish, not having to stop at all, how long would it take me in an EV,? It would be a whole day thing at least, probably an overnight stop, 

That one instance alone shows that EVs are nowhere near practical yet for anyone that actually goes anywhere, 

 

[binky]

The range is nowhere near enough, no sarcasm needed, 

It may be fine for people that don't actually go anywhere, but in the real world it's lettuced. 

Manchester to Penzance, I can do that in one go in my van, about 6 hours-ish, not having to stop at all, how long would it take me in an EV,? It would be a whole day thing at least, probably an overnight stop, 

That one instance alone shows that EVs are nowhere near practical yet for anyone that actually goes anywhere, 

Totally agree, I'm surprised there aren't more hybrid vans and lorries. EV is great for knocking around town, shortish commuter journeys.

You could do Manchester to Penzance on 2 /3 charges, stopping for about an hour at motorway services with fast chargers.

 

[ProDave]

I have said elsewhere that an EV is fine as a second vehicle.  They are fine as a shopping trolley and short range commuting.  But no good for long journeys and no good for people that want to "do" something with a vehicle like tow something.

When we retire I had envisaged a situation that one car between us would be fine.  but it would have to be a capable vehicle.  Ironically the present direction of travel means we will probably stick with 2 cars, one EV for the local stuff and an ICE car for towing and long journeys.  At least the ICE car would not be doing many miles.

 

[binky]

So having been analised over and over it definitely is a load of then

Dyslexic fingers  :^O

 

[binky]

some light reading for you climate change deniers. Second link is easier read and probably more relevent to this forum. First article is mostly science research from government organisations, not paid for by business research. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus_on_climate_change#:~:text=The global warming observed over,agricultural practices, and other activities.

https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php

 

[NozSpark]

The range is nowhere near enough, no sarcasm needed, 

It may be fine for people that don't actually go anywhere, but in the real world it's lettuced. 

Manchester to Penzance, I can do that in one go in my van, about 6 hours-ish, not having to stop at all, how long would it take me in an EV,? It would be a whole day thing at least, probably an overnight stop, 

That one instance alone shows that EVs are nowhere near practical yet for anyone that actually goes anywhere, 

If you look as to how many people actually do that kind of journey you will see that those kinds of journeys account for an extremely low percentage of the journeys taken on a daily basis.... are we meant to ensure that every vehicle can do this kind of mileage when so few actually do it? .... and how many people actually drive these kinds of mileage non-stop, I know that I can't as my bladder only has a 2 hour capacity when driving..... BTW pretty much all the safety advice for driving recommend that you stop every couple of hours

As I said, EV is not "the" technology,,, it is, and will be, one of several technologies that will be used in the future.... EV being for the masses and (maybe) Hydrogen being used for freight etc

 

[rapparee]

From another forum, source unknown:

Ireland has been forced to freeze power exports to the UK to prevent a shortage which could have sparked blackouts as surging energy prices continue to cause chaos across Europe.

A toxic combination of low wind speeds and a severe squeeze on the supply of natural gas sent power costs jumping tenfold on the British mainland on Thursday to as much as £2,300 per megawatt-hour, a new record high.

It came as transmission was halted on the Moyle interconnector, which sends electricity from Northern Ireland to Scotland.

Mutual Energy, which owns and operates the undersea cable, said that flows had been stopped for "operational security reasons due to generation shortfall in the all-Ireland single electricity market".
Ireland's Single Electricity Market Operator had issued an amber warning on Thursday morning, alerting the public to a "general shortfall" of electricity which could result in power cuts.


The cost of energy has been spiralling across Europe, due in part to calm weather which has drastically reduced the availability of renewable power.


 

Data Centres are consuming 23% of all the electricity in ireland 

The companies that operate these centres are paying next to no tax and creating very little jobs

It's obscene really 

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

If you look as to how many people actually do that kind of journey you will see that those kinds of journeys account for an extremely low percentage of the journeys taken on a daily basis.... are we meant to ensure that every vehicle can do this kind of mileage when so few actually do it? .... and how many people actually drive these kinds of mileage non-stop, I know that I can't as my bladder only has a 2 hour capacity when driving..... BTW pretty much all the safety advice for driving recommend that you stop every couple of hours

As I said, EV is not "the" technology,,, it is, and will be, one of several technologies that will be used in the future.... EV being for the masses and (maybe) Hydrogen being used for freight etc

The fact that shorter journeys are a higher percentage of overall journeys is irrelevant unless everyone has access to multiple vehicles..

one they can keep for the local trips and another with longer range for the less frequent trips....

And often the people producing these evaluations don't take account of large proportions of the population who..

(a) cannot afford to own more than one vehicle.. 

(b) for the one vehicle they do own, they currently could never afford the significant higher costs of EV's..    (They need to drop in price one helluva lot!)

(c) they also have family members who do not all live local to their own home.. 

e.g.  We are in the Midlands..

with children living in Sheffield, Portsmouth, Cheltenham...

during the past few months we have made multiple visits to Cheltenham,  (due to family medical issues & funeral).

trips to Sheffield (family christening).

trips to Heathrow & numerous other 50+ mile trips due to family wedding.

later this month & next month we have further trips to Heathrow and to Portsmouth..
 

All of the above currently can easily done, with a single vehicle, there and back on one tank of fuel, with no need to stop on route to refuel..

and this same vehicle can also do all of the local trips as well..

Plus trips down to Cornwall with the caravan..   (single tank each way.. ) 

As a additional point...

A lot of those short local trips..  are the school run..

which could be done on FOOT..  like wot we did when I went to school!!!

so don't really need a car at all EV or ICE!

And even many shopping and going to work trips could be done without a car..

which would be far better for may peoples general health & fitness! 

Guinness  

 

[ProDave]

some light reading for you climate change deniers. Second link is easier read and probably more relevent to this forum. First article is mostly science research from government organisations, not paid for by business research. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus_on_climate_change#:~:text=The global warming observed over,agricultural practices, and other activities.

https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php

I am not a climate change denier *.  I am just frustrated that the "solutions" we are offered are not adequate. 

If EV's as they are now are the only solution, then the government need to come clean and say things like travelling in a motorhome or towing a caravan around behind you will END.  You will all be RESTRICTED to small personal transport vehicles with limitations on range which will seriously limit where and when you can go. You will all have to re think your motoring and indeed many aspects of your life, what you do and where you go.

At the moment we are being "sold" the idea of EV's with the pretence that they can simply replace ICE cars and if we all swap to an EV we can just carry on as we were.  NO WE CANNOT.  If the electricity used to charge EV's is not all generated by renewable means, then all and EV has done is MOVE the pollution from your car to the power station.  So until we have a grid that is nearly all renewables, a large expansion of the number of EV's will not actually reduce CO2 by much.

Misleading the public is NOT the way to make them comply. It is about time we were told the truth.  That we have to drastically restrict what we do, and what little we then still do, must be in EV's.  I find that very unpalatable, which is why my ethos is changing to "do as many things on the bucket list as soon as possible, while we still can"

*  I am just about to complete the one thing I CAN do to reduce my climate impact, I am just completing my new build house with an as built EPC of A94, where the solar PV generates more electricity in a year than it uses to heat the house.  This is one thing that IS possible NOW, to create a just about net zero carbon house, that you can live in just like any other house, except the bills are much lower.  It should be mandated NOW that ALL houses are built like this.  This is something that is possible NOW without making everyone reduce their expectations of what they are able to do, but instead we seem to be punishing the nasty motorist to "solve" the problem rather than address housing that can be done NOW.

 

[Fleeting]

I frankly don't care but no caravans on the road can only be a winner. All we need to remove then are cyclists.

 

[steptoe]

I am not a climate change denier *.  I am just frustrated that the "solutions" we are offered are not adequate. 

If EV's as they are now are the only solution, then the government need to come clean and say things like travelling in a motorhome or towing a caravan around behind you will END.  You will all be RESTRICTED to small personal transport vehicles with limitations on range which will seriously limit where and when you can go. You will all have to re think your motoring and indeed many aspects of your life, what you do and where you go.

At the moment we are being "sold" the idea of EV's with the pretence that they can simply replace ICE cars and if we all swap to an EV we can just carry on as we were.  NO WE CANNOT.  If the electricity used to charge EV's is not all generated by renewable means, then all and EV has done is MOVE the pollution from your car to the power station.  So until we have a grid that is nearly all renewables, a large expansion of the number of EV's will not actually reduce CO2 by much.

Misleading the public is NOT the way to make them comply. It is about time we were told the truth.  That we have to drastically restrict what we do, and what little we then still do, must be in EV's.  I find that very unpalatable, which is why my ethos is changing to "do as many things on the bucket list as soon as possible, while we still can"

*  I am just about to complete the one thing I CAN do to reduce my climate impact, I am just completing my new build house with an as built EPC of A94, where the solar PV generates more electricity in a year than it uses to heat the house.  This is one thing that IS possible NOW, to create a just about net zero carbon house, that you can live in just like any other house, except the bills are much lower.  It should be mandated NOW that ALL houses are built like this.  This is something that is possible NOW without making everyone reduce their expectations of what they are able to do, but instead we seem to be punishing the nasty motorist to "solve" the problem rather than address housing that can be done NOW.

I almost agree with you 100% , 

Apart from the fact that over an average 20 year period, an EV actually produces more CO2 than the average diesel, production etc, and that doesn't take into account the shortened lifespan of the batteries or the child labour involved in mining the materials. 

 

[NozSpark]

How about the energy used to get the crude oil to the surface, transport it to the refinery, refine it, and then transport it to the fuel station…. as well as a lot of the chemicals used in these processes?

as it stands currently EV’s are more damaging to manufacture than ICE cars, but after about 40,000 miles the figures go the other way… and as EV’s have far fewer moving parts than an ICE cars they should last longer and be cheaper to service … many battery packs are guaranteed for 8 years and will last a fair bit longer than that

BTW I’m not an environmentalist or anything mad like that, but we can’t carry on the way we are

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

If you look as to how many people actually do that kind of journey you will see that those kinds of journeys account for an extremely low percentage of the journeys taken on a daily basis....

Just been pondering the percentage concept a bit more..

Should we evaluate on the "percentage of journeys"..      OR    the "percentage of miles driven"... ?

e.g.  taking a random 5weeks, crunching some typical numbers from my own driving habits..

(If over 5 weeks we did 1 trip to visit children/grandchildren in Sheffield, Portsmouth & Cheltenham...)

And the bulk of my other day to day local trips are between 5 and 10miles..

You get rough figures where 90% of driving by journey count is short and local..

BUT  around 70% of driving by mileage is long distance....

SO..

do eco vehicles need to be designed to cope with the higher percentage of journeys ..

OR..  the higher percentage of miles driven?

:C

HOWEVER...

If we had a half decent public transport system..

that worked reliably, on time, was relatively clean & safe, and covered all the key areas that 99% of people commute between..

A huge number of daily commuting trips to the same place 5 days a week..   (e.g. home to office and/or school)..

would not need loads of independent car journeys causing more traffic jams that make the public transport unreliable!!

Not even needing an EV.. 

Admittedly not all workers go to the same place every day..     and some have to carry specific items allowing them to do their job..

BUT a high proportion could actually either walk to work or use public transport, (if it was there), and carry all they need for a days work without too much hassle at all!

Need some of these hybrid electric / hydrogen fuel busses that the JCB bod is involved in.

Guinness

 

[Sharpend]

How about? 
banning all those that live in cities from owning a vehicle and providing free to use electric taxis for taking the big shop home, using EV buses electric trams etc. Then having a pool of vehicles that can be rented cheaply for the long journeys out of town? When you think about it nowadays many vehicles on the road are rented anyway what with PCP’s, long term lease etc so it shouldn’t really make that much difference to the end user which vehicle they drive, of course it would need a change of mentality by us the humans and I know that that would be the most difficult change. 
This would solve the air pollution in cities, saving our children, reduce CO2 dramatically and still give people the freedoms that they choose. 
The only vehicles that need to be driven in a city are those of workmen who actually keep the world turning? 
 

I think the biggest problem to climate change is not the change but OUR attitude towards it, if WE don’t change OUR approach then it will never change the climate? 

 

[binky]

How about the energy used to get the crude oil to the surface, transport it to the refinery, refine it, and then transport it to the fuel station…. as well as a lot of the chemicals used in these processes?

as it stands currently EV’s are more damaging to manufacture than ICE cars, but after about 40,000 miles the figures go the other way… and as EV’s have far fewer moving parts than an ICE cars they should last longer and be cheaper to service … many battery packs are guaranteed for 8 years and will last a fair bit longer than that

BTW I’m not an environmentalist or anything mad like that, but we can’t carry on the way we are

making anything new has a CO2 footprint, that's why I'm not in favour of trying to legislate older vehicles off the road.

Batteries can be recycled once they do give up the ghost. One of my customers bought an all EV car rather than hydrid because it's so simple and uncomplicated, he has a point! He has also toured Scotland in it from Plymouth and reckoned it wasn't much of an issue.

Personally, I reckon the gov is missing a trick with regards to pesonal transport such as electric bikes and scooters. Bikes have a range of about 25/30 miles without peddling, not sure about scooters. If the roads were safer and less jammed with cars, I think take up of these and ordinary bicycles would be much higher. I for one, will not cycle on public roads, I just dont feel safe doing so. I have just dropped my son off to East Aldgate, central London, bicycles are faster than cars through that dreadful gridlocked city. I'm so glas I don;t have to peddle my trade orund there! 

I am not a climate change denier *.  I am just frustrated that the "solutions" we are offered are not adequate. 

If EV's as they are now are the only solution, then the government need to come clean and say things like travelling in a motorhome or towing a caravan around behind you will END.  You will all be RESTRICTED to small personal transport vehicles with limitations on range which will seriously limit where and when you can go. You will all have to re think your motoring and indeed many aspects of your life, what you do and where you go.

At the moment we are being "sold" the idea of EV's with the pretence that they can simply replace ICE cars and if we all swap to an EV we can just carry on as we were.  NO WE CANNOT.  If the electricity used to charge EV's is not all generated by renewable means, then all and EV has done is MOVE the pollution from your car to the power station.  So until we have a grid that is nearly all renewables, a large expansion of the number of EV's will not actually reduce CO2 by much.

Misleading the public is NOT the way to make them comply. It is about time we were told the truth.  That we have to drastically restrict what we do, and what little we then still do, must be in EV's.  I find that very unpalatable, which is why my ethos is changing to "do as many things on the bucket list as soon as possible, while we still can"

*  I am just about to complete the one thing I CAN do to reduce my climate impact, I am just completing my new build house with an as built EPC of A94, where the solar PV generates more electricity in a year than it uses to heat the house.  This is one thing that IS possible NOW, to create a just about net zero carbon house, that you can live in just like any other house, except the bills are much lower.  It should be mandated NOW that ALL houses are built like this.  This is something that is possible NOW without making everyone reduce their expectations of what they are able to do, but instead we seem to be punishing the nasty motorist to "solve" the problem rather than address housing that can be done NOW.

This is the biggest problem of the lot, the political side of what needs to change isn't happening fast enough. There is no excuse for not building 'passive' houses that are carbon zero, it mostly inloves a bit more insulation. 

 

[ProDave]

I almost agree with you 100% , 

Apart from the fact that over an average 20 year period, an EV actually produces more CO2 than the average diesel, production etc, and that doesn't take into account the shortened lifespan of the batteries or the child labour involved in mining the materials. 

Yes I agree with that and it is liket I said above, we are being "sold" a "solution" to MMGW which is in fact anything BUT a solution.  It will make all our lives harder, without actually solving the problem.

 

[Sharpend]

making anything new has a CO2 footprint, that's why I'm not in favour of trying to legislate older vehicles off the road.

Batteries can be recycled once they do give up the ghost. One of my customers bought an all EV car rather than hydrid because it's so simple and uncomplicated, he has a point! He has also toured Scotland in it from Plymouth and reckoned it wasn't much of an issue.

Personally, I reckon the gov is missing a trick with regards to pesonal transport such as electric bikes and scooters. Bikes have a range of about 25/30 miles without peddling, not sure about scooters. If the roads were safer and less jammed with cars, I think take up of these and ordinary bicycles would be much higher. I for one, will not cycle on public roads, I just dont feel safe doing so. I have just dropped my son off to East Aldgate, central London, bicycles are faster than cars through that dreadful gridlocked city. I'm so glas I don;t have to peddle my trade orund there! 

This is the biggest problem of the lot, the political side of what needs to change isn't happening fast enough. There is no excuse for not building 'passive' houses that are carbon zero, it mostly inloves a bit more insulation. 

I think you’ll find this is why in the new updated Highway Code this year the prefer of rights on a road is: pedestrians, cyclists ………lorries. 
 

so I do hope they won’t mind if I drive on the pavements ? 

 

[binky]

I think you’ll find this is why in the new updated Highway Code this year the prefer of rights on a road is: pedestrians, cyclists ………lorries. 
 

so I do hope they won’t mind if I drive on the pavements ? 

I'm sure that's part of it and trying to encourage car users to change to bicycles. It's been done in a few major cities like Copenhagen, and Amsterdam is of course famous for bicycle use.