Advice On The Latest, Landlords Type Card Swipe Meters Needed

[Evans Electric]

Hi all

The DNO will only issue one MPAN [it stands for "meter point adminsitration number] They do this when you first arrange to have a supply put in. You then have to supply details of the MPAN to the supplier, who will then check with the DNO first, before he fits his meter and energises it. So, one supply = one MPAN

So, the ONLY way you can have separate meters for each flat, administered to by a "supplier" and not the landlord [and do not forget each consumer could choose his own supplier himself], would be to have the DNO install multiple supplies, each with their own MPAN.

Hate to think of the cost.....

john..

Thats interesting  Apprentice  at the moment each flat is fed by a 16mm T/E  from the metering position .   Do you reckon they will want their own concentric sub to each flat  ?     As you say , they'd want to charge a fortune for that . 

I remember years ago when we converted the place ,  the DNO were quite happy to run two flats from one supply . 

 

[Blue Duck]

Based on some of the tenants he's had there they would stay 3 months then do a runner before paying for leckie Patch . He's also had the coin boxes smashed open before tenant dissapears.

Landlord sells the cards to tenants and he reckons some will be phoning at midnight for a card .

Not sure who he has in there now .......... last tenant was no problem whatsoever , a girl about 26 . Unfortunatley as she and her sister crossed the main road by me , they were moan down by a car that crossed the lights at 60MPH .......instead of braking he just blew the horn , she was killed ..her sister survived but lost the baby she was carrying .

The son of the rich man in his fast car is serving 7 yrs in The Green . Bastard.

I hope he gets bummed - A LOT! bet his Daddy is a member of the local masons.

As for the Meter issue get the landlord to not pay the bill. supplier will come out and fit a pre pay Meter get 2 keys and let the Tennant's sort it out :lol:

There should be a better way to pay these days like via Bluetooth or PayPal?

 

[Evans Electric]

How about swiping a credit / debit card @ £50 a time  or similar?

I hope he gets bummed - A LOT! bet his Daddy is a member of the local masons.



As for the Meter issue get the landlord to not pay the bill. supplier will come out and fit a pre pay Meter get 2 keys and let the Tennant's sort it out :lol:

There should be a better way to pay these days like via Bluetooth or PayPal?

Probably not in this case Ducky............... 2nd generation of our Asian cousins ... successful   businessman brigade 

 

[Apache]

This company seems to offer a owned meter that can be topped up  like a mobile phone

http://www.meters.co.uk/other/apm-automated-prepayment-metering

 

[apprentice87]

Hi all,

Not sure the exact method the DNO will use. My other half lives in a building that was converted from a driving test centre into flats. This building originally presumably, [it was a house to start with] had a single incoming supply.

Now, each flat has its own external meter box [remember now, so far as i know, for a NEW supply, they will ONLY do it if you have an external meter box] with a submain leading to a CU in the flat. [To be honest i forgot to look for an OCPD to protect each submain, i will have a look tomorrow, have good idea they have not got any....]

Anyway, god only knows what arrangement they have made under the ground, but there are about 10 domestic meter boxes in a row on the outside wall, they are only about a foot apart. Anyway, each one is fed separately by a concentric service cable that pops up out of the ground. For all i know they might well have ten resin filled "torpedoes" all along the main to feed these things, which would be a bit of a laugh, as the joints have to be a meter apart on the main [so far as i know]

Now, when they read the meter, how do they know which meter feeds which flat?? Someone has numbered the boxes from 1-10 BUT these number DO NOT correspond to the flat numbers!!!!!!!!!

So, how is it done?? Answer is, that each of the ten supplies, has its own MPAN,  and each meter has a number on it, this is the number that appears on your bill. No idea if they even read all the meters all at once [remember, they might all have different suppliers]

Anyway, meter reader comes along on a mission to read meter number whatever, for example, my meter here is P06C10236, he finds the meter [modern meters have a bar code as well as the number], reads it, and goes off happy!!! The suppliers computer does the rest, meter reader presumably does not even know which flat, it is just a meter with a number to him.

How do i post a picture?? i will do one of my meter and bar code??

john...

Just add, big surprise, the meters are all in a secure car park, but ALL the meter box doors have been ripped off.... Obviously the meter reader did it so they do not have to open and shut them all, merely walk along scanning the barcodes on each meter...

 

[Blue Duck]

John... upload the image to photobucket or similar image storage and copy the link and paste it in.

Alternatively paste the url of the image and use the tags:

Johnspicture[\img]

Or you can use the attach function on the top bar when posting

Oh and the amount of switch fuses I see on converted buildings just sitting in external boxes with no doors...waiting to be turned off :lol:

 

[apprentice87]

Hi all,

Had a look and i will post photos later but anyway, there are in fact fourteen supplies in a row. Each one has its own concentric service cable popping up out of the ground from its own individual hockey stick.

Here is the best bit!! The DNO have provided the TNCS supply [obviously] and then the metering people [western power are not suppliers, just a DNO] have connected the meter up to a REC2 [Told you they had to!!] sealed it up, and cleared off.

Obviously once they had safely cleared off, the rest of the install was done, because each submain is 16mm flat twin and earth with no OCPD at all, which is pretty funny, as some of the submains must be 20 or 30 metres long at least [it is a large building with 14 flats]

Now, sure enough, every now and again, an "electrician" turns up to do a EICR for each flat. How do they do this without having a look at the incoming supply?? how do they fill in the form, they do not know the earthing system or anything, they must just fill in suitable numbers, guess the rest and clear off.

john....

 

[Sharpend]

I think you'll find that is seen as excellent time management by the supervisor!!

 

[apprentice87]

Another thing,

In each flat everything is bonded, as you would expect, back to the earth bar in the CU [which is being used as a MET for the installation, each flat being entirely separate from an electrical point of view]. Problem is though, the earthing conductor from the earth bar back to the the DNO earth terminal, is the 6mm cpc of the 16mm twin and earth they have used for the submain.

Bit short of the 16mm required for a TNCS system........................

oh dear......

Got to go out!! will post piccys later...

 

[Sharpend]

Usually put in a separate earth conductor with the T&E, isn't that what everyone does?

 

[apprentice87]

Hi Again!

Right, first off, we have a picture of the meter boxes showing all the individual service cables popping up out of the ground. A recent innovation has been to put the doors back on with duct tape!

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x373/resistance87/Meterboxes/2014_0923Image0010.jpg

Now, in this next photo you can see inside one of the boxes. I notice that the meter is owned by the DNO, did not know Western power did this, but there you are.. You can also see the number and barcode that identifies the meter and supply.

See how the isolator feeds the twin and earth [which is at least 20 metres long] without any kind of OCPD. As it is a TNCS supply the main bonding conductor is required to be 10mm. Ok, happy days, you can see that they have run a separate 10mm alongside the twin and earth. Problem is, the earthing conductor to the MET, [in this case the earth bar in the CU] is required to be 16mm. Yes, they have this if they combine the cable cpc and the separate earth cable, but i am not sure if you are allowed to "add up" the cables like this to  get the required CSA. You certainly cannot in the case of a bonding conductor. [at least you cannot with SWA]

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x373/resistance87/Meterboxes/2014_0923Image0003.jpg

Still, there you are, a block of flats with 10 or 14 [i forget which] entirely separate supplies, service cables and all. Hate to think what it cost...

john

 

[Evans Electric]

Landlord has contacted the company who bills him ,  they have contacted a metering company who are showing the usual lack of interest but he.s pushing them for a date .

I'm just wondering now what they will do with the Landlord's board ,  I've not been back yet but I remember doing 3 boards , 2 flats & Landlord , which feeds the communial hall light....the smoke detectors & the communial gas  C/H boiler.   They'll have to leave the original meter & bill the Landlord  ... I'd best mention that to him ..........I can see them leaving it dead if he doesn't keep his eye on them .    

 

[Rob_the_rich]

Hi Again!

Right, first off, we have a picture of the meter boxes showing all the individual service cables popping up out of the ground. A recent innovation has been to put the doors back on with duct tape!

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x373/resistance87/Meterboxes/2014_0923Image0010.jpg

Now, in this next photo you can see inside one of the boxes. I notice that the meter is owned by the DNO, did not know Western power did this, but there you are.. You can also see the number and barcode that identifies the meter and supply.

See how the isolator feeds the twin and earth [which is at least 20 metres long] without any kind of OCPD. As it is a TNCS supply the main bonding conductor is required to be 10mm. Ok, happy days, you can see that they have run a separate 10mm alongside the twin and earth. Problem is, the earthing conductor to the MET, [in this case the earth bar in the CU] is required to be 16mm. Yes, they have this if they combine the cable cpc and the separate earth cable, but i am not sure if you are allowed to "add up" the cables like this to  get the required CSA. You certainly cannot in the case of a bonding conductor. [at least you cannot with SWA]

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x373/resistance87/Meterboxes/2014_0923Image0003.jpg

Still, there you are, a block of flats with 10 or 14 [i forget which] entirely separate supplies, service cables and all. Hate to think what it cost...

john

Hi John, I might be missing something, but isn't the OCPD the 60amp bs1361 (guess) in the supply? Also, i haven't done the calcs but using the adiabatic equation, the earthing conductor could be the 6mm in the T&E, and the 10mm extra cable would be the protective bonding conductor. It looks to me that the connection from the earthing terminal to the head is in 16mm. I can't see anything wrong with it apart from missing label on the earth terminal. But am willing to be proved wrong.

 

[apprentice87]

Hi there,

Yes, but the MET for the installation is in the CU in the flat, about 30 yards away, remember, each flat is it's own installation, so the earthing conductor all the way from the CU to the earth terminal needs to be 16mm. Also, you are not allowed to use the cutout fuse as the OCPD, that is why if you have tails more than 3 meters long you need to provide your own OCPD for them.

I am willing to be proved wrong too!! Just my opinion is all, i might be miles out!!

john..

 

[Steve3948]

6.0mm CPC in T&E and additional 10mm CPC, giving 16mm total.

Once saw a 35mm 2 Core SWA with an additional 6491X 4.0mm CPC I assume to just meet requirements.

Is it classed as a Sub-main, where you would want to fuse and isolate accordingly ?

 

[Sidewinder]

6.0mm CPC in T&E and additional 10mm CPC, giving 16mm total.

Once saw a 35mm 2 Core SWA with an additional 6491X 4.0mm CPC I assume to just meet requirements.

Is it classed as a Sub-main, where you would want to fuse and isolate accordingly ?

Steve,

It is not acceptable to calculate the csa of a cpc by addition in the way that you illustrate here.

There is a technical report by ERA which details the reasons why, this is taken currently as the authoritative work on the topic.

One of the cpc's must be fully rated for the fault current.

If not both.

 

[apprentice87]

Exactly, reason being, you have no idea which way the fault current will choose [the are other factors other than impedance at work here] Sooo, as paul says, if you need an additional cpc or bonding conductor, the additional one must be able of carrying the entire fault current on its own..

john..

 

[Steve3948]

Yes I agree hence the 10mm surely.

 

[apprentice87]

The DNO's specify 16mm as the minimum size earthing conductor for a domestic type TNCS supply [all to do with size of incoming neutral]

john..

 

[Steve3948]

I was under the impression this was a DNO install, seen it done this way by them before on maisonettes.

Rules for some rules for others.