Building Control

[400Hz]

Hello, I'm after a pointer in the right direction in regards to building control. Over the coming months I will be undertaking a complete rewire of my own house and garage (including C.U replacement) as part of the properties renovation. I intend to carry out all of the installation work by myself. I consider myself to be competent to do this work due to my background in the aerospace industry (electrical/electronics). I have also taken my 18th edition and 2393-101 Certificate in the Building Regulations for Electrical Installations in Dwellings (Part P) exams.

Before starting, I made an application to my Local Authority to give notification of my intentions. I paid the fee including an extra fee for the inspection and testing. The LA have now come back to me and said I can start the work but they no longer provide this service and that I will need a Part P electrician to sign off my work.

I'm a little confused now as to the paperwork I will need to get in place.

1. I know that other electricians won't provide me with an EIC as I will have done the installation (totally get that). With my current qualifications, would it be acceptable to produce my own EIC?

2. Or, is it just a case of when I have completed the installation, call in and pay a Part P registered electrician to carry out a full EICR, and then submit that to the LA?

Any advice, other peoples experiences would be welcome on this.

 

[binky]

No sparky likes signing off work they haven't done, so get one on board before you start. My own background was also aerospace before retraining, there's quite a difference to the work.

 

[Murdoch]

You need to be careful as some areas ONLY permit some sparks to submit 3rd party inspections (at a premium)

I think you should try and locate a spark BEFORE you start and see what they will agree to

Hire much actual hands on experience do you actually have?

 

[400Hz]

Thanks for the replies. My installation will be very simple consisting of lighting and socket outlet circuits only, no solar, EV charging etc. I have installed these types of circuits for myself in the past. I'm also retired now so have plenty of time to do it properly inline with the regs.

I don't see why any electrician should have a problem carrying out an EICR on an installation I've done, if it's wrong, surely they just fail it. That said, I think it would be a good idea to get somebody in to check at first fix before cables are plastered into the walls, and again when accessories have been connected prior to fixing to back boxes.

 

[Murdoch]

It’s never that simple, bit that’s just me with considerable experience.

What do I know?

 

[Fleeting]

Passing the 18th Ed exam means absolutely nothing and unless you can underpin it with training and experience it means even less. You come onto a forum with members who have a combined wealth of knowledge and experience and expect us to condone what you are doing, we don't and this is an example of why Part P is a farce. If this sounds harsh I am just echoing the opinion of the majority.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Hello, I'm after a pointer in the right direction in regards to building control. Over the coming months I will be undertaking a complete rewire of my own house and garage (including C.U replacement) as part of the properties renovation. I intend to carry out all of the installation work by myself. I consider myself to be competent to do this work due to my background in the aerospace industry (electrical/electronics). I have also taken my 18th edition and 2393-101 Certificate in the Building Regulations for Electrical Installations in Dwellings (Part P) exams.

From what you have said you have only taken the exams that relate to knowledge and understanding of the relevant regulations? But not taken any courses that would be recognised as essential for any person to claim to be a competent electrician?

Have you passed any City & Guilds qualifications relating to the design and installation of electrical circuits?

i.e. 2393 is described as a course to bring experienced electricians up to date with current building regulations e.g. quote from a typical on-line 2393 training provider..

"If you are an experienced electrician looking to upgrade your knowledge and qualifications to encompass the Part P building regulations but want to study at home at your own pace, then this course was made for you. The City & Guilds 2393 Part P will help prove your competence and knowledge of the Part P building regulations which will help when you need to register with a governing body and work as a domestic Part P installer."

With most industry recognised trades bodies, the two qualifications you have mentioned would not be sufficient for you to be considered as a competent electrician able to sign any electrical certificates to confirm the installation is compliant with current regulations and that all circuits will disconnect the supply fast enough in the event of a fault.

What other qualifications do you have??

 

[binky]

Thanks for the replies. My installation will be very simple consisting of lighting and socket outlet circuits only, no solar, EV charging etc. I have installed these types of circuits for myself in the past. I'm also retired now so have plenty of time to do it properly inline with the regs.

I don't see why any electrician should have a problem carrying out an EICR on an installation I've done, if it's wrong, surely they just fail it. That said, I think it would be a good idea to get somebody in to check at first fix before cables are plastered into the walls, and again when accessories have been connected prior to fixing to back boxes.

you need an EIC for a rewire, and as much as you have fiddled with electrics before, I doubt your handy work is too the same standards, There's lots of little details you would not necessarily be aware of which professional electricans know about and you probably don't, which is why we are very reluctant to sign off other people's handiwork as our own. Some of the worst electrics I have seen were from an aerospace engineer, and a member of the IET. The aerospace guy had used bell wire for his 240V wall lights, pinned to the wall with panel pins inserted through the middle of the cable..., so whilst it may seem we are being 'difficult' we do have reasons for our behaviour. Regs dont teach installation methods or good practice.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I don't see why any electrician should have a problem carrying out an EICR on an installation I've done, if it's wrong, surely they just fail it.

Any competent electrician would NEVER issue an EICR for a rewire..!

One of the first questions asked when undertaking an EICR should be, "do you have copies of previous EICR's and/or EIC for initial work?" If no documents are available for what is clearly recent work, alarm bells should start ringing with the person requested to to the EICR.

An EICR for new or alteration work does NOT comply with part 6 of BS7671, (pages 230 through to 240 of current edition), If you get your copy and have a read I am sure you will understand?

If you have any questions about specific regs in Part 6, come back and ask, and I am sure will will all do our best to help your understanding.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

If you can provide evidence to your LABC that you have sufficient industry recognised current electrical qualifications..

And that you have your own, (or have hired), appropriate calibrated test equipment..

Then you can issue you own EIC based on the model forms given in Appendix 6 of BS7671, (pages 508 through to 531 of current edition), again if you reference your copy, you could draught your own forms with any suitable word processor / spreadsheet package, Which LABC should accept provided they accept your competence.

 

[400Hz]

Wow, some scathing replies there. Think I shall deal with the insults first.

"you need an EIC for a rewire, and as much as you have fiddled with electrics before, I doubt your handy work is too the same standards,..."

So after 30+ years working 'hands on' in the aerospace industry as an electrical/electronics engineer, gaining an HNC and Degree along the way only adds up to a competence level of 'has fiddled with electrics'! I think you will find that the regulations and standards I have had to adhere to are amongst the highest you will find in industry.

Thank you Special Location for actually answering my first question -

"
If you can provide evidence to your LABC that you have sufficient industry recognised current electrical qualifications..

And that you have your own, (or have hired), appropriate calibrated test equipment..

Then you can issue you own EIC based on the model forms given in Appendix 6 of BS7671..."

My LABC are not really interested. This is how I have ended up here asking questions. As far as they are concerned I can go ahead and do the work. So long as they receive a full Part P certificate at the end, they will be happy. Note, they have not requested an EIC (rightly or wrongly).

Clearly the Part P system has caused this issue and devolved responsibility down to individual electricians which makes it no longer cost effective for LA's to employ an electrician for BC purposes. If they had, my work would be inspected along the way and if it met the standard, would be independantly tested and signed off. Would have also saved all the hassle of coming on here and upsetting everyone!

 

[Fleeting]

Your Degree and HNC are in a completely different field so it would be somewhat naive to assume it is transferable to another discipline.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

My LABC are not really interested. This is how I have ended up here asking questions. As far as they are concerned I can go ahead and do the work. So long as they receive a full Part P certificate at the end, they will be happy. Note, they have not requested an EIC (rightly or wrongly).

Clearly the Part P system has caused this issue and devolved responsibility down to individual electricians which makes it no longer cost effective for LA's to employ an electrician for BC purposes. If they had, my work would be inspected along the way and if it met the standard, would be independantly tested and signed off. Would have also saved all the hassle of coming on here and upsetting everyone!

The LABC do NOT receive a Part P certificate.. (as they do not exist)
You issue a BS7671 electrical installation certificate to them to confirm the work complies with current wiring regulations..
They then issue a Part-P compliance notification to the homeowner (you in this case)..

If the work is notified by a registered competent electrician they do all the notification on-line via their scheme providers portal..
Which creates a Part-P compliance notification which is typically sent electronically as a PDF to the relevant person, (Homeowner/Landlord etc..)

(The person doing the notification then has various legal obligations should anything prove to be non-compliant, faulty, dangerous etc.. in the future? hence why many electricians are not willing to take on the responsibility for third party work.)

The LABC should have to follow the standard building regulation guidance for all aspects of building work.. Including "Approved Document P"

i.e. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a802da7ed915d74e622ceed/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf

Where page 10 has paragraph...

So providing you have appropriate qualifications they should not be able to refuse?
If you are confident that your qualification are sufficient, and that you can test and issue a BS7671:2022 EIC to your LABC..
Then go ahead and follow the guidance of bullet point 3.10, as that is what the Gov.UK website says!

However you didn't answer my earlier question... "Have you actually passed any City & Guilds qualifications relating to the design and installation of electrical circuits?"

As without any formal industry recognised qualifications for electrical design, installation, inspection and testing of low voltage work in domestic dwellings then your LABC could consider you not competent and thus your EIC invalid.

(I also have an HNC and Diploma in other electrical fields.. but these have no relevance when assessing my competence to self certify and notify any part-p related work that I do.)

 

[Phoenix]

Starting from the begining. What you are terming a part P certificate is actually a building regs conpletion certificate. These can only be issued by A) the LABC themselves, B) An alterative private sector building control organisation doing the same function, or C) one of the electrical membership schemes (obviously for only the electrical work)

I don't think the LABC can just refuse to del with the electrical parts of the job, its not clear if thats what your are saying has happened, or whether they have just said they are unable to arrange someone to do the inspection and testing part of the job which they previously did for an extra fee? which I guess they are quite ok to do as it was an extra service. You could in that case arrange for someone to do the testing, and use a three signature EIC with you signing for design and construction, which you then hand (a copy of) to the LABC to get your BR completion certificate, the person who does this just needs to be competant at what they are doing, not registered with anyone as they will not be submitting it through their scheme. Or if the LABC is happy with an EICR (they may be) then you could commision one of these, obviously you'd be missing an EIC for the works, but if LABC are happy then probably not a big issue, often they tend more towards that for regulation of historic works which were never notified. Personally I wouldn't have an issue carrying out an EICR and would just fill the purpose of report box with something like 'Required to assess compliance to B7671 of works done previously by others, as per request to client from LABC'

In terms of C) Generally members are only allowed to notify their own work, tthats not to say you won't find someone who will do it for the right bribe, but most will be terribly offended at the mere suggestion!. There are some schemes who run third party verification schemes for members who have opted in, but most folk do not get involved with that, but the scheme does exist and you might be able to find someone, and I beleive they are meant to act in a way similar to BC inspections, so inspection at first and second fix, and then the inspection and testing offered as well, after which they are allowed to notify the third party work.

 

[mort2376]

I have in the past issued an eicr for a rewire but this was only due to the original electrician passing away before fully completing the second fix.

You can issue an eic as there are 3 sections to sign. Design of installation, installation of equipment and inspection and testing.

It can be 3 separate people signing this certificate.

As others have said I would try and get a local electrician on board to carry out the inspection and testing. They may charge you over the odds but you are asking them to test an installation they may have no knowledge off.

You need full clarification of what YOUR local building authority requires from you. If they are happy that you have the knowledge to be recognised as a competent person then you can go ahead and do the work.

However as others have said Electrical installation is not just pulling some cables in and connecting them up. A competent electrician has a working knowledge of all building regulations not just part p, as many others have an effect on an electrical installation.

Are you installing ventilation, smoke detectors, heat alarms, carbon monoxide alarms ? All these have different regulations and are not covered under part p or bs7671.

Just because something works when turned on doesn't mean it's been installed correctly.

 

[binky]

Wow, some scathing replies there. Think I shall deal with the insults first.

"you need an EIC for a rewire, and as much as you have fiddled with electrics before, I doubt your handy work is too the same standards,..."

So after 30+ years working 'hands on' in the aerospace industry as an electrical/electronics engineer, gaining an HNC and Degree along the way only adds up to a competence level of 'has fiddled with electrics'! I think you will find that the regulations and standards I have had to adhere to are amongst the highest you will find in industry.

It's a different discipline, you've basically been working with control circuitry, domestic electrics is power distribution. By comparison its 'agricultural' compared to what you work with, but it does have its own quirks and installation methods, something I also did not appreciate until I retrained having spent 20 years in engineering, including 10 years working for BAe building missile control systems. Being able to solder amphenol connectors to mil standards is not required in a house, knowing where you can put holes in joists is. Anyway, I'm not having a dig at you, just trying to point out why electricians are reluctant to sign off work they haven't done themselves. As I said before, get an electrician who is happy to work with you before you start the rewire, they will be able to produce the EIC, have the test gear, be able to notify BC, and give you advice.

 

[Murdoch]

OP - my advice to you would be to locate LOCAL sparks and see if they would be prepared to let you do a lot of the work …….

Our replies aren’t scathing - would you let us meddle in your field?

AND be aware that only the installer / inspector / tester can issue a part P compliance document too

 

[johnb2713]

Your Degree and HNC are in a completely different field so it would be somewhat naive to assume it is transferable to another discipline.

A Degree and HNC demonstrate the holders ability to learn and understand subject matter studied, so I doubt he's being naïve in stating his qualifications.

 

[Fleeting]

A Degree and HNC demonstrate the holders ability to learn and understand subject matter studied, so I doubt he's being naïve in stating his qualifications.

I never said he was naive in stating them but that is was naive to assume they were transferable to another discipline.

 

[johnb2713]

I never said he was naive in stating them but that is was naive to assume they were transferable to another discipline.

But it's not transfering them it's proof of his intelligence / ability to learn etc IMHO.