Building regs

[Geffers]

Went to look at replacing sockets for a potential client but they have been installed into the skirting boards (8 x double gangs) took one out & there is no back box. They have all been fitted & screwed straight to the skirting! what are the Regs on this? Dri line box may be a solution but iam trying to avoid chasing the wall out behind them as i cannot remove the skirting. Can i leave them as it is? or am i obligated to fix them correctly? No copper is showing & they all have earth continiuty.

 

[ianmacd]

I think you need to refamiliarise yourself with Schedule 7 of the Building Regs

Materials and workmanship 7. Building work shall be carried out

 

[Geffers]

Ian, i can see where your a leading me on this but reg 4(2) informs that on completion (ie i change the sockets) that is is left in no worse condition than when i started (exactly the same) also there is no obligation to upgrade the existing work unless the new work adversely affect the original condition. (it will not as it was already non compliant by some one else) so the difinitive question is if i leave it as it was but with new facias on, am i being non compliant?

 

[ianmacd]

If you fully read 4 it does not say you can ignore 7. I would suggest anyone leaving sockets installed without a proper enclosure and thus not complying with schedule 7 should be reported to trading standards.

 

[Geffers]

Whoa!!! Thats a bit strong isnt it trading standards referals? All i was asking what the consequences would be as regards the regs. Who made you judge & jury? If you cannot take an impartial veiw on the questions asked then do us all a favour & dont bother answering. Dinstinguished member? Dinstinguished in what?

 

[Manator]

There are two points I would like to raise.

1, there is no back boxes to the socket outlets, this would be wrong in any install.

2, sockets on skirting if being replaced should not prevent the safe use of flexible cords, if there is any strain or unatural bend radius on the plug outlet this would be wrong. Like for like replacement is fine providing what you do does not contravene any building regulation, have you checked the circuit for Insulation? It has been a long time since sockets were connected on the skirting, and if its VRI cable should not be disturbed.

 

[ianmacd]

Whoa!!! Thats a bit strong isnt it trading standards referals? All i was asking what the consequences would be as regards the regs. Who made you judge & jury? If you cannot take an impartial veiw on the questions asked then do us all a favour & dont bother answering. Dinstinguished member? Dinstinguished in what?

That is an impartial view. I never said you did or would leave it like that. In fact, since you are here asking it shows that you would not be happy leaving it rather than just swapping them out otherwise you would have just replaced them and not posted on here.

Also, its not polite or helpful to personally attack other members.

 

[ProDave]

If you want to keep the sockets in the skirting, why not enlarge the hole a little, and fit a 25mm metal back box in the skirting?

That gets the job done with little mess and is up to spec.

 

[Zeespark]

Further to what ProDave says, a Multimaster can cut out the skirting almost exactly to the box dimensions, then a little chiselling out of the wall would mean that a metal back box can then be installed, job done.

Andy

 

[philbas]

reg 4(2) informs that on completion (ie i change the sockets) that is is left in no worse condition than when i started

The regs do say that, but I think the impilcation is that it was safe to start with although not always to the current standards.

So as a qusetion, If when you go in and the installation is lethal, no cpc, all metal boxes and a lose live touching one, can you replace like for like and claim it is still lethal but no more lethal than it was before I replaced things.

 

[ianmacd]

The regs do say that, but I think the impilcation is that it was safe to start with although not always to the current standards.So as a qusetion, If when you go in and the installation is lethal, no cpc, all metal boxes and a lose live touching one, can you replace like for like and claim it is still lethal but no more lethal than it was before I replaced things.

That section applies to Building Regs too not BS7671. Whats the BS number for the backbox made of skirting?

Interestingly this is touched on in ADP:

It was commonplace up to the mid-1960s for accessories such as socket-outlets, lighting switches and ceiling roses to be fixed to wooden mounting blocks.The design of the accessories is often such that the wooden block is used to form part of the enclosure for the unsheathed cores and terminations of cables connecting to the accessory. However, depending on the particular characteristics of the material from which the block is made, it may not satisfy the ignitability requirements of the current Wiring Regulations (BS 7671) for such use.

 

[philbas]

That section applies to Building Regs too not BS7671. Whats the BS number for the backbox made of skirting?

I think you read my comment the wrong way

I feel that leaving a circuit in a lethal situation, because it was lethal before, and it is no more lethal now is not a defence.

 

[ianmacd]

Nope I totally agree with that part and would hope everyone here would also.

 

[Geffers]

Ok 1st apologies to Ian if you think i went too far in one of my answers. this was not my intention. I would not leave ANY job in any dangerous condition whatsoever. (In fact i recentley left a job without power as there was no earth from the supplier & i deemed it too dangerous). For some unknown reason i never got paid for that job! Can,t think why! The feedback has resulted in some good & simple ideas to rectify the situation on site. Thanks to all who have contributed in this matter. STILL IT WAS A GOOD THREAD!!

 

[Nicky Tesla]

How about putting some intumescent material inside. I dont know where you can get some or what shape it is, but if you can get small sheets to cut to shape, that would be good.

 

[Geffers]

Hi guys just to let you know what the result was i managed to open the holes to accept a 25mm box & once i removed the plaster behind it fitted slightly proud but the accesorry covered it. It was fairly new cable (old colours) i suspect the joiner cut the holes & screwed them onto the skirt (7" skirting)

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Do you have enough height to comply with 553.1.6 pg 142 ?

i.e. prevent damage to plugs and the socket during insertion & removal of plugs..

If as you say its 7" skirting I am guessing the are toward the top half of the skirting?

so you can probably get away with just about enough height?

BUT....

Personally I would avoid leaving any socket outlet in a skirting board like the plauge...

I would never fix any socket in a skirting in the first place

and I don't think I would like 'Mr skirting board customer' saying afterward..

"oh yes we had a proper qualified electrician come and fix them for us"!

I'd rather not have that work associated with me.

At the end of the day if they are moved onto the wall its only a bit of skirting board that needs..

patching & painting / varnishing or replacing..

Not too difficult for a reasonable carpenter/joiner/chippy etc..

even any decent DIY bob can fit skirting.

:coffee

 

[Nicky Tesla]

what i did once is turn the socket upside down so that the plug cable dint get bent

 

[steptoe]

what i did once is turn the socket upside down so that the plug cable dint get bent

Im pretty sure there is something somewhere saying you 'shouldnt' do that.

Im not saying its a really bad thing and the body snatchers will get you when you go to sleep or anything,

just that its kinda naughty,