Cable Size

[Sidewinder]

newman,

I noticed a fork lift truck in the background of one of your pictures.

Is this install in a place of employment?

 

[steptoe]

I also a bit concerned about the AC and DC in the same enclosure,

are the AC cables double insulated? I would doubt it, and by the looks of it they cross over the DC cables at some point, I doubt they have the required seperation distances required.

as for the wood back board, as a very minimum I think SMA will have voided their warranty and responsibility instantly.

its probably just because I cant see them in the pics, but are there any 'DUAL SUPPLY' labels anywhere? its only a minor thing in the big scheme, but even little things like that matter,

I cant see any schematics anywhere either, which should be at ever point of connection, ie, inverter and consumer unit.

 

[newman]

newman,I noticed a fork lift truck in the background of one of your pictures.

Is this install in a place of employment?

The install is in/on a storage barn which is on a working farm

 

[Sidewinder]

newman,

I that case I might be tempted to try to pull all references to these threads from a public forum as if the farm is yours then you will be the duty holder under statute law, and your installer has not complied with several of these from the information I have here at this stage remotely.

You could also be done under civil law for various issues as there have already been test cases with respect to this where employers personnel have been imprisoned and/or fined significantly.

As this is a workplace then much of the advice given to date is irrelevant as if the install does not meet statute law requirements, which it does not then in the event of an issue then prison sentences could be given.

 

[newman]

newman,I that case I might be tempted to try to pull all references to these threads from a public forum as if the farm is yours then you will be the duty holder under statute law, and your installer has not complied with several of these from the information I have here at this stage remotely.

You could also be done under civil law for various issues as there have already been test cases with respect to this where employers personnel have been imprisoned and/or fined significantly.

As this is a workplace then much of the advice given to date is irrelevant as if the install does not meet statute law requirements, which it does not then in the event of an issue then prison sentences could be given.

Got to say I find your thread hard to follow

I do not employ anybody

 

[Sidewinder]

It does not matter whether you employ anyone or not.

If your premises is operated for financial gain, then employment laws apply, as does a whole raft of other legislation.

You also have a duty of care to visitors to your business premises.

 

[Manator]

Newman from what has been seen (from your pictures) and what has been discussed during the course of these threads it would appear you have more problems with this install than you first perceived.

If basic design criteria as been ignored, and even manufacturers instructions ignored you are always going to be faced with a poor job.

Lets take the inverter for instance, one mounted as per instructions and one mounted on wood, both came from the same faulty batch, the one mounted as per instructions would get replaced, the one mounted on wood would not.

Not all electrical installers are familiar with solar pv installs, myself included, so the lack of basic warning labels to warn people like myself of the dangers is tantamount to gross neglect.

Working at heights is another safety issue, and a permit to work would never be given in a factory without other certification and training requirements.

What sidewinder said above whilst remote if you are under the radar, is extremely possible and undoubted probable should anything happen, the most likely after the fire that the inverter would cause.

Again armed with the information you have from this forum I would make an official complaint to Napit who in my opinion have neglected their duties in this matter.

I would also be tempted to lock off and do not use any of this installation until you are satisfied has the duty holder that the installation complies, and is safe to use.

 

[newman]

Newman from what has been seen (from your pictures) and what has been discussed during the course of these threads it would appear you have more problems with this install than you first perceived.If basic design criteria as been ignored, and even manufacturers instructions ignored you are always going to be faced with a poor job.

Lets take the inverter for instance, one mounted as per instructions and one mounted on wood, both came from the same faulty batch, the one mounted as per instructions would get replaced, the one mounted on wood would not.

Not all electrical installers are familiar with solar pv installs, myself included, so the lack of basic warning labels to warn people like myself of the dangers is tantamount to gross neglect.

Working at heights is another safety issue, and a permit to work would never be given in a factory without other certification and training requirements.

What sidewinder said above whilst remote if you are under the radar, is extremely possible and undoubted probable should anything happen, the most likely after the fire that the inverter would cause.

Again armed with the information you have from this forum I would make an official complaint to Napit who in my opinion have neglected their duties in this matter.

I would also be tempted to lock off and do not use any of this installation until you are satisfied has the duty holder that the installation complies, and is safe to use.

Mr Manator ,whilst I agree with 95% of your thread, how can I get NAPIT involved when,every time I complain they stonewall me,I pressum you have read their emails,

Also,

how can I,your quote, do not use any of this installation until you are satisfied has the duty holder that the installation complies, and is safe to use, when it is clear to anybody I havent got a clue about electrics

Is there another way forward

 

[Manator]

Do not worry, whilst this forum is unbiased towards any scheme provider the mere mention of them on these pages will have them sitting.

The problem with ALL scheme providers is the fact that they have to act within the agreed limitations of the complaints procedures, however, you do have one weapon on your side and that is regulations, if worded correctly a properly presented complaint will take it out of the hands of the installer and into the hands of the installers scheme provider.

You do have a duty of care to ensure that your installation is safe and it is your duty to provide evidence of this, I suggest you do not use the system until you are satisfied, this can be done by employing a competent person to do a report for you, the cost of this can and should be passed to the installer.

This problem is not new, and to save a few pennies many clients go for unrealistic quotations or use people they know who dabble. I am not saying for one minute that you went for the cheap option, but this installation done properly would have cost you more financially, but you would have now been reaping the benefits, instead you are here finding out where it all went wrong.

 

[ivor dispatch]

Do not worry, whilst this forum is unbiased towards any scheme provider the mere mention of them on these pages will have them sitting.The problem with ALL scheme providers is the fact that they have to act within the agreed limitations of the complaints procedures, however, you do have one weapon on your side and that is regulations, if worded correctly a properly presented complaint will take it out of the hands of the installer and into the hands of the installers scheme provider.

You do have a duty of care to ensure that your installation is safe and it is your duty to provide evidence of this, I suggest you do not use the system until you are satisfied, this can be done by employing a competent person to do a report for you, the cost of this can and should be passed to the installer.

This problem is not new, and to save a few pennies many clients go for unrealistic quotations or use people they know who dabble. I am not saying for one minute that you went for the cheap option, but this installation done properly would have cost you more financially, but you would have now been reaping the benefits, instead you are here finding out where it all went wrong.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 23:13 ---------- Previous post was made at 23:12 ----------

It does not matter whether you employ anyone or not.If your premises is operated for financial gain, then employment laws apply, as does a whole raft of other legislation.

You also have a duty of care to visitors to your business premises.

:slap

 

[Manator]

Could you explain the above post Ivor?

 

[ivor dispatch]

I am sure you all mean well and have Newmans best interests at heart but to try and scare him half ta death, is a bit much

I will read it all again ,,,,, but just because the gear is placed at high level is not a problem ,,to be as silly as you lot may be he has a giraffe in the shed,,,,,, all HSE can be sorted with a risk assessment. Inverters on wood, again installers choice but not a disaster the sma doc is a get out of jail card not a statement to say it is not allowed. O and all that empolyers and duty holders nonsensce , by newman employing someone to install and certificate a pv install(or any other thing he requests on his site) he has negated his responsibilty as the installer but must make sure Maintenance is in place.

 

[ivor dispatch]

IvorSurely one would install to manufacturers Guidance and Instructions ?

In the 4000TL manual it even states the following - See Pic Attached

Did you know standing on a brick or less is working at heights according to HSE and if it can be avoided it should, last resort is risk assessment to use scaffolding or step ladder etc - One would presume you did a working at heights course ?

As for mounting on wood then what would your risk assessment say for this ? Common sense surely prevails ?

Your pic states it is a consideration and every site is different so SMA is out the woods

Mounting an inverter on wood please screen shot the bit SMA say NO

 

[newman]

IvorSurely one would install to manufacturers Guidance and Instructions ?

In the 4000TL manual it even states the following - See Pic Attached

Did you know standing on a brick or less is working at heights according to HSE and if it can be avoided it should, last resort is risk assessment to use scaffolding or step ladder etc - One would presume you did a working at heights course ?

As for mounting on wood then what would your risk assessment say for this ? Common sense surely prevails ?

TBH NAPIT would agree with Ivor, ,

Common sense NAPIT don't have any

 

[kme]

Newman.

I`m going to try to paraphrase my colleagues here; and also the reason for my height query.

The three rotary isolators (two DC and one AC) are designed (among other things) for emergency isolation of the system, if required.

If someone has to get 3M in the air, before they can operate the isolators - they`re not located in a suitable position for use.

The installation instructions for the SMA inverters specify a non-flammable surface. The company we did installs for provided a fireproof board for mounting inverter and isolators - NOT the nearest lump of plywood, which is NOT fire retardant.

If I remember correctly, the inverter is supposed to be in a location which does NOT require access equipment.

I also have possible concerns regarding the proximity of AC and DC cabling - and second Canoey`s request for the pics with its "clothes off", as it were.

(There is another pic I`d like to see, but I wouldn`t ask you to do it).

Sidewinder then raises the point r.e. a place of work (be it yours, or an employees). All of a sudden, different rules are in force. All the comments previous about "so-and-so" not being law, only guidance? All out the window now - The rules and regs governing a place of work are very different, and far more strictly enforced. Because (I`m assuming) it`s YOUR farm, then any accident or insurance claim could investigate you, and find you guilty of negligence; even if YOU were the one injured.

for example - if a fault with the way that has been installed caused a fire in the barn, and you were injured. The resultant investigation into that fire could find YOU culpable - daft as it sounds.

I think you`ve had good advice - get the install INDEPENDANTLY checked (I`m sure many members of the forum would help you ), and a written report into the concerns, non-compliances with relevant standards (including, but not limited to HASAWA(74), EAWR(89), MiS3002, building regulations and 7671 )

Just my advice.............

KME

 

[Jono Pashley]

I seem to remember reading somewhere about maintaining seperation between the AC and DC cables, will try and have a look when im less busy.

 

[kme]

just because the gear is placed at high level is not a problem ,

Tell that to the electrician who falls from the ladder he shouldn`t have had to climb, when he`s isolating the inverter AC to work on the installation.

all HSE can be sorted with a risk assessment.

OH! Thats good to know.

erm....Which copy of HASAWA has that in? I can`t find that particular regulation.

Inverters on wood, again installers choice but not a disaster the sma doc is a get out of jail card not a statement to say it is not allowed.

I`ll go along with that - though it DOES give me some preconceptions about the installer

O and all that empolyers and duty holders nonsensce , by newman employing someone to install and certificate a pv install(or any other thing he requests on his site) he has negated his responsibilty as the installer but must make sure Maintenance is in place.

He never HAD a responsibility as installer - but did YOU know that the duty holder has a duty to ensure that the installer is competent? But you go ahead and call it "nonsense" - everyone is entitled to an opinion.

 

[Manator]

I am sure you all mean well and have Newmans best interests at heart but to try and scare him half ta death, is a bit muchI will read it all again ,,,,, but just because the gear is placed at high level is not a problem ,,to be as silly as you lot may be he has a giraffe in the shed,,,,,, all HSE can be sorted with a risk assessment. Inverters on wood, again installers choice but not a disaster the sma doc is a get out of jail card not a statement to say it is not allowed. O and all that empolyers and duty holders nonsensce , by newman employing someone to install and certificate a pv install(or any other thing he requests on his site) he has negated his responsibilty as the installer but must make sure Maintenance is in place.

You should sleep on this statement, and wake up to the real world, you can argue all you like providing facts are stated, but your ignorance is no excuse.

 

[Jono Pashley]

Common sense does not prevail then ?I give up with you to be honest, you obviously do PV but seem to have you own very narrow opinions....

SMA doesnt say NO, its a recommendation, ask yourself this - would you mount an Inverter running at a high surface temperature on the back of the unit on a combustible material ?

If the Answer is Yes then that really answers all my questions to be honest

Risk assessments are for reducing risk, last time i did one risk of heights and fire were there and then you would see what you could do to reduce that risk - Errrrr lets see mount on a non-combustable ? Errr Lets see mount it 4ft off the gorund at the expense of 6ft of extra dc cable so its easily worked on ??

Errr do you think the DNO would be happy when they come round to Isolate to see the Isolators 10 ft up ? Sky hooks anyone ?

You obviously have your own agenda, not sure what it is but have a good evening, perhaps you'll get this thread closed by the time i come back in the morning

I thinks i just saw something i wasnt supposed too!

 

[Manator]

I thinks i just saw something i wasnt supposed too!

No that was me playing around with posts, and messed up