Changing meter tails

[kerching]

I realise the OP was a little complicated, and possibly far to comparatively involved for the average "desk bound" folks that obviously lurk around this place. I think my grasp of the English language is pretty good frankly, compared to the average, and I don't think that the narrative would have been particularly enhanced by a more polished presentation, the relevant point is quite obvious.

And by the way, it's "dose" of common sense, not "does", tut tut.

Your comment regarding doing things by the book or earning a dollar are accepted and appreciated, why didn't you just say so in the first place? That was what I was going to do anyway, I was just looking for other opinions, obviously a mistake......

Call me picky, but it is 'au revoir ' , and not 'ah revoir '

just saying

 

[Part-time-Paul]

Thanks Pro Dave, a polite and decent answer at last. I am not trying to shoot any messengers, but it would help if the members either concentrated their responses on constructive comments and suggestions or, frankly, did not bother. I did not post on this forum to have my grasp of the English language brought into question, actually.

 

[Part-time-Paul]

Yes, the French present tense is "Au", as in "Au Revoir". I apologise for not being in front of the spell-checker.

 

[Sidewinder]

I realise the OP was a little complicated, and possibly far to comparatively involved for the average "desk bound" folks that obviously lurk around this place. I think my grasp of the English language is pretty good frankly, compared to the average, and I don't think that the narrative would have been particularly enhanced by a more polished presentation, the relevant point is quite obvious.

And by the way, it's "dose" of common sense, not "does", tut tut.

Your comment regarding doing things by the book or earning a dollar are accepted and appreciated, why didn't you just say so in the first place? That was what I was going to do anyway, I was just looking for other opinions, obviously a mistake......

Paul,

Welcome to the forum, I doubt your OP was complicated, it was just impossible to comprehend due to the formatting, I had to give up after 4 lines as I was getting cross eyed.

So, I have no idea what you are asking, and there is a good chance that I can give you an answer to your issues.

 

[apprentice87]

Ok, seals...

Some time ago, the seal fairy came to my house, problem was, so did the meter reader at the same time!! I merely explained i had to pull the fuses, [they were out at the time]

Meter reader said they would have to report it. Ok, no worries.. Me being helpful said that i would go and see swalec myself and get new ones. The meter reader said all he had to do was to press a button on his contraption, and that would report it.

Ok, so off i go to swalec. They were NOT IN THE LEAST BIT INTERESTED and said that the cutout did not belong to them, and, no, they would not be coming out to reseal it, but added that; "we DO fit seals to cutouts if we change the meter or whatever, but otherwise not our equipment, and not interested..." I inquired, "are you sure????" Make no mistake, they were sure and could not care a lettuced..

Ok, fine.. So then i go and see the local friendly WPD chaps and asked if they had any seals they could fit on for me. They just laughed and said; "We know who you are anyway" and "We know what you are up to, you have been doing lots of welding again!!!"

So, do not worry about seals on cutouts in the least, BUT, as has been pointed out, you remove the meter seals and you will be in trouble big time.

Others may disagree. but hey ho....

When they DID change the meter though, they fritted seals to both ends of the carrier, top and bottom. Never seen this before, go you think they are trying to be funny???

john...

 

[Sharpend]

Not buying it John, sorry but if you were as smart as we know you are wouldn't you just buzz the welder over the broken seals :innocent  broken seal what broken seal :innocent  

 

[Part-time-Paul]

Right, I will try and simplify it, I recognise it is not particularly simple to envisage, although not that uncommon. Here we go:

100A (definitely) service fuse feeding, via 25mm tails, the "main" meter.

From this meter we go into a Henly block with 16mm tails. (There is also a small CSA single black (neutral obviously) cable which goes from the first meter to the E7 meter, but this is probably irrelevant I just didn't know what is is for)

The Henly block can only accept 16mm cable

From the block there is a feed to the "day tariff " CU, the E7 tariff Meter/switch, and 2 other small switch fuses feeding the shower/cooker, all in 16mm.

From the E7 meter/switch, there are 16mm tails into a 3036 fuseboard feeding the storage heaters. This is only powered up when the E7 meter/switch receives the signal to kick into life, obviously.

So, the whole cupboard housing all this is pretty rammed full of cables and units. So much so there is little room for the network supplier (WPD) to fit an isolator between the cutout and the meter.

The customer has contacted the electricity supplier, who have no interest, seemingly, in wanting to remove all the now redundant, E7 kit. It is obviously easier for both the meter reader and the customer to submit reading from 2 meters, one of which will never change. The clearly do not want to send a "subby" to site.

When I upgrade the CU I will be expected to fit 25mm tails. Unless I thought there was no chance of my scheme coming to look at this as part of my next assessment, I would not give a hoot, but I know they will bring up the 16mm tails. I know, as we all do, that the 16mm tails are perfectly adequate for the prospected current draw, but this is seemingly irrelevant.

So, I need to try and bring some sense into all this, I was just trying to see how other member might deal with it, bearing in mind the customer is a tad fastidious, as well as tight, as is usual.

Yes, I have a bag full of meter seals, and could easily pull the service fuse, but I would still not be able to upgrade the tails from the first meter to the henley block, so no point. Same if WPD fitted an isolator, which they can't really (no room). And my refitting the seals is of no real point.

I would install my new CU and dead test it, and then get the meter provider to connect the tails into the meter, but it would need to go via the henley block, which is the customers (my) responsibility, as bypassing it would mean the E7 meter is now dead, which is, apparently, not something they can do.

I might be making the mistake of trying to be too politically correct here, and should  just get on with it. Believe me I have a few other means of sorting this out, as Murdoch is probably alluding to. I was just looking for a bit of advice.

I think the easiest solution would be to stop worrying about the 16mm tails from the meter to the henley block, go with 25mm from there to the new CU and not disturb any seals or involve anyone else, if you get my drift.

 

[ProDave]

That's why I suggested new 25mm tails from the new CU, left a little over length, into the henley block. Yes they might need a haircut to fit, but this is only temporary.

Then get your supplier to change the meter for a single rate (change supplier if they won't) and in the process removing the henley's, the time switch etc and terminating your new tails into the new meter.

That is the only legal way to do it, and unfortunately depending on who the supplier is,.it may not be painless. but that should be your objective.
 

 

[Part-time-Paul]

Hi John, interesting comments and bad luck with the timing! Now, I am interested in your comments regarding removing cutout seals and/or meter seals.

I realise both are illegal, but as has been said, we have a living to make. I just don't get the idea that removing DNO cutout seals is relatively OK but removing meter seals is a massive no-no. Most of the time, if you have to upgrade meter tails, you have to remove the meter seal (unless I am missing something?). If the DNO come out to fit an isolator they do it after the meter, obviously. Problem I have is there is literally no room to fit the blooming thing before the henley block.

Thinking about it, last time I did one they couldn't get the 16mm tails out of the meter so just put them straight into the isolator they provided, in which case, should I ever get quizzed over it, I will just relay something along the same lines.

Has anyone ever heard of any sparky being prosecuted for allegedly tampering with seals??

If the metering company were to try and insinuate that a particular customer had obtained "free" electricity by bypassing the meter, they would have to demonstrate physical evidence, or submit lowered meter readings over a period of time, or both, surely?

 

[Part-time-Paul]

That's why I suggested new 25mm tails from the new CU, left a little over length, into the henley block. Yes they might need a haircut to fit, but this is only temporary.

Then get your supplier to change the meter for a single rate (change supplier if they won't) and in the process removing the henley's, the time switch etc and terminating your new tails into the new meter.

That is the only legal way to do it, and unfortunately depending on who the supplier is,.it may not be painless. but that should be your objective.

I think that is the best alternative to be honest. Of course the Henley block can always be upgraded without disturbing any seals, but that is up to the individual concerned, obviously.
 

 

[Murdoch]

I'm just wondering how you can upgrade the Henley block without disturbing the seals and not work live........

 

[Sharpend]

Unless I'm mistaken and it wouldn't be the first time and probably not the last! aren't the only undersized tails the bit between the meter and Henley? Even then that's questionable, for the individual 16mm will suffice for the loading of each individual cu etc, now what is the likely hood of the install actually having sufficient load to raise the risk of overloading the 16mm, let alone creating a risk to the 100a cutout? Do people on economy 7 stay up late to cook their dinner and shower? Which would give max loading? 

Just letting the brain.. fart!!!

 

[Murdoch]

Thanks Pro Dave, a polite and decent answer at last. I am not trying to shoot any messengers, but it would help if the members either concentrated their responses on constructive comments and suggestions or, frankly, did not bother. I did not post on this forum to have my grasp of the English language brought into question, actually.

Matey, nobody was having a go at your grasp of English BUT in any language you need sentence structure, punctuation and new paragraphs!

 

[Part-time-Paul]

Unless I'm mistaken and it wouldn't be the first time and probably not the last! aren't the only undersized tails the bit between the meter and Henley? Even then that's questionable, for the individual 16mm will suffice for the loading of each individual cu etc, now what is the likely hood of the install actually having sufficient load to raise the risk of overloading the 16mm, let alone creating a risk to the 100a cutout? Do people on economy 7 stay up late to cook their dinner and shower? Which would give max loading? 

Just letting the brain.. fart!!!

No, because I can't get my new 25mm tails into the 16mm henley, unless they "have a haircut" or the henley is "upgraded", hence the problem. I wouldn't give a monkeys about the 16mm from meter to Henley (and argue the toss with any assessor), but I think they would have a point if they raised 16mm going into the new CU?

Matey, nobody was having a go at your grasp of English BUT in any language you need sentence structure, punctuation and new paragraphs!

Fair point. I did spend some time trying to compose it, not easy to be fair. The whole b****y jobs one of those walking through treacle ones. I think you might have had a good original point actually, JFDI.

 

[Sharpend]

No, because I can't get my new 25mm tails into the 16mm henley, unless they "have a haircut" or the henley is "upgraded", hence the problem. I wouldn't give a monkeys about the 16mm from meter to Henley (and argue the toss with any assessor), but I think they would have a point if they raised 16mm going into the new CU?

So if you can demonstrate that there is insufficient risk in its current state, what are you adding in the new CU that changes this risk?

 

[Part-time-Paul]

So if you can demonstrate that there is insufficient risk in its current state, what are you adding in the new CU that changes this risk?

Nothing. The loading on the new CU will not come near warranting 25mm tails. I am not trying to justify fitting them, but I can just see some smart-ass assessor making a big thing of it. As most of try to do, I would like it to be squeaky, and you can guarantee its the one out of the hat. Unless I am mistaken in thinking that we are supposed to fit 25mm tails by default now?

 

[steptoe]

I fail to see the problem,

You have already admitted to pulling the main fuse, otherwise how can you be so certain its a 100amp fuse if you haven't witnessed it yourself.?

Part 2, what sort of ISCOs only take 16mm tails,? I've never seen any,,,,

The cupboard is the responsibility of the homeowner, rip the excess stuff out and get the client to go to a non E7 tariff, keep all the meters etc and tell the owner to collect within 6months or you will dispose of them.

 

[Murdoch]

If you are concerned about your assessment, then call your scheme and seek their guidance BUT be aware that the NICEIC and Elecsa will no longer reply to emails so anything they say it's not recorded.

I think that the schemes have far bigger issues on their hands than putting you down for not dealing with the supplier and getting them to work with you to change the tails. The reality is that they won't upgrade old 10 or 16mm fabric tails so if the existing tails are in good order then leave them.

The OSG shows schematics for new installations which I would follow for talks at 25mm but be aware that the guides for earthing and bonding for TT. systems is misleading or darn right wrong.

The schemes, yes all of them have totally and utterly failed in working together to get as United coherent policy with the suppliers and DNOs to have a simple policy irrespective of where you are and what we can do.

As competent sparks we should be trusted to do our jobs properly and safely, and if this means tugging a main fuse to ensure safe isolation then so be it!

 

[Part-time-Paul]

I fail to see the problem,

You have already admitted to pulling the main fuse, otherwise how can you be so certain its a 100amp fuse if you haven't witnessed it yourself.?

Part 2, what sort of ISCOs only take 16mm tails,? I've never seen any,,,,

The cupboard is the responsibility of the homeowner, rip the excess stuff out and get the client to go to a non E7 tariff, keep all the meters etc and tell the owner to collect within 6months or you will dispose of them.

Jesus. where did I say i had pulled the fuse? Read the posts. If you have not seen a henley block that won't take 25mm cable then you aint seen many have you? If you havn't got any thing constructive to say just don't bother for FFS!

 

[steptoe]

Jesus. where did I say i had pulled the fuse? Read the posts. If you have not seen a henley block that won't take 25mm cable then you aint seen many have you? If you havn't got any thing constructive to say just don't bother for FFS!

You said the cutout fuse was definitely 100amp, how do you know this if you haven't physically seen it,?

Even the faeries that live under my shed agree with me, if you haven't witnessed it yourself you can't be certain.

Ok,  show me this Henley block that inly takes 16mm tails then, I don't actually use many Henley blocks, just generic ISCOs, I can't see any on Henley website either, are they even rated at 100amp,? Maybe that's another non compliance for your cutout fuse, along with this massive issue about not having the gumption about what to do.....