Cu Change

[JTI sparks]

Alright all

I'm changing a cu over for an up to date 17th edition board, no worries.

Having briefly looked over the existing instlallation there appears to be no bonding and the main protective conductor looks like 6mm maybe 10 but I doubt it.. It's a TT installation and the conductor heading to the earth electrode seems to be 6mm as well.

My question is if I change the CU and complete with electrical installion certificate, and code the lack of bonding and incorrect main CPC size and inform the client.

Can anything come back to me if a fault happens to occur??

Cheers

Appreciate the comments

 

[Evans Electric]

1. A board upgrade ......so I presume new RCDs covering all parts now ?

2. You can't leave it in a dangerous condition . .

3. We are supposed to install bonding , assuming someone pays us to do it .

4. You'd best check minimum cable sizes to rods, I usually use 10mm as default.

5. I believe if you can't upgrade bonding the opinion is you can't do the job.

Others will talk more sense.

 

[Steve3948]

My view on this is whatever you do will improve it over what it is now, if they don't want to pay or cannot pay for other works, then record on certificate for the work you have done, also a letter confirming that you have advised the importance of the works required in order to comply fully with current regulations and safety.

If you don't do it someone else will, you cannot force them to have things done and anything you do will be better than what they have.

This may not be what we should do in an ideal world, but any improvement is better than none, providing they are fully aware.

 

[JTI sparks]

Nice one lads,

I hear the both of you, I just feel I can only do what I have priced the job for to the best of my ability..

I can inform the client of the issue and it is down to them to decide wether they want to pay me to trace

 

[JTI sparks]

*sorry.

Out the existing earth and replace it with a new one.

I would obviously bond the pipes free of charge if the water and gas intake was at the same location, which it is not.

Any other comments?

 

[NozSpark]

There's a reg quite early in the BGB that basically says that any addition or alteration to an installation must be done safely and that the current installation must be able to safely carry the alteration / addition.

Which means for a CU change that the earthing and bonding must be up to scratch.

TBH you should have checked this and included it in your price before you quoted.

 

[steptoe]

the fact you have priced the job wrongly is neither here nor there,

if you carry on with the CU change and it doesnt meet the current regulations then you have acted 'illegally' , end off,

not to mention the fact you have done what Bob from the pub would have done anyway for half the price probably,

you cant just sling it in and leave it,

either do it right and take the hit, putting it down to experience [or lack of] , or leave stuff like this to people that are competent at doing it.

 

[Steve3948]

And as we all know the BGB is a recommendation, and he is not making the installation worse, but improving it, and like I said if they cannot afford to pay now, but are aware it needs to be done, then you can only do your best and not be expected to do it free.

I will not turn work away, it's in short supply, but I will not do any work that would leave an installation more dangerous than it already is, that's where I draw the line.

 

[steptoe]

so you simply not a massive amount of deviations on your cert?

not the sign of a true tradesman IMHO .

its either right or its a bodge.

true, work is short,

do you want me to tell you why?

[bTW, Im OK-ish busy]

 

[Steve3948]

Steps, true tradesman has nothing to do with it.

If the client cannot afford it that's how it is.

If you walk away someone else will do it and maybe not even tell them other areas need addressing.

If nobody does anything then the installation stays in an even worse condition which helps know one.

Providing they are aware it needs doing and it's importance when they can afford it and you document everything on your certificate and I. writing, then you have done everything you could and made them safer than they were.

 

[steptoe]

sorry Steve, but this is why proper trades are finding it so hard,

some jack will come in and do a bodge job for half the price,

this is why times are hard and prices are getting undercut all over the place,

I dont compete with botch Bob and the rest of the cowboys, I simply tell people what is needed and what they will get,

if they want to go down the half arsed route and then call me in a month they pay twice for the job they should/would have got in the first place.

proper trades has a lot to do with it IME most of this 'its OK' attitude comes from the 5WFW bridgade cos they dont know any better/couldnt care less/dont have the brains to do it right in the first place,

anyone doing a job that requires an installation cert and fills it with deviations is clinking spurs all the way to the saloon.

 

[Steve3948]

Steps I don't agree.

A bodge job is when you say it's rewired and its not, maybe only some of it.

A bodge job is moving a cooker point by sticking a 30A Joint Box in the old box and plastering over it.

Your not doing half a job and get paid for a full job, you are getting paid to take out a board with no RCD protection putting one in that does.

It's now safer, you have been paid to replace the board.

They cannot afford to get more done yet, so you leave it and ignore them and leave them with what they have.

When you take your car for a service and you pick it up they tell you your car needs 4 new tyres as they are below the limit, this does not make them a bodge garage.

Don't act like god, do what you can, they will appreciate your help and no doubt call you back to continue with the upgrade when they can afford it, if that makes be a bodger so be it, I don't care, I may even do the work free because that's how I roll.

 

[M107]

You should have included the bonding as part of your quote end of.......if you c***** up and didnt include it then you carry the can and do it for free, no matter if its close or far from the cu.

 

[steptoe]

Steps I don't agree.

A bodge job is when you say it's rewired and its not, maybe only some of it.

A bodge job is moving a cooker point by sticking a 30A Joint Box in the old box and plastering over it.

Your not doing half a job and get paid for a full job, you are getting paid to take out a board with no RCD protection putting one in that does.

It's now safer, you have been paid to replace the board.

They cannot afford to get more done yet, so you leave it and ignore them and leave them with what they have.

When you take your car for a service and you pick it up they tell you your car needs 4 new tyres as they are below the limit, this does not make them a bodge garage.

Don't act like god, do what you can, they will appreciate your help and no doubt call you back to continue with the upgrade when they can afford it, if that makes be a bodger so be it, I don't care, I may even do the work free because that's how I roll.

its makes you one of the half a job couldnt care less brigade Im losing work to because Im pricing to do it right, and not bodge it.

a bodge is a bodge, doesnt matter how you paint it, if its not done right then its wrong, there are no half measures,

the old rewirable 3036 complied when it was fitted, the new board you have fitted doesnt comply, simple as,

its wrong

its cowboy

and its why our trade is in a shambles !

the more I read your posts on this thread the more I dont think you are a spark.

for someone that says they are time served you are almost making me ashamed.

 

[Steve3948]

Likewise I've read a lot of your posts. the way you condemn your 5WW as you call them when you don't even know them.

You suddenly went very quiet the other night when debating the swimming pool earth, someone who could see through you, made you go very very quiet indeed.

In many of your posts you have said most of your work is sub-contract to other Electrical contractors or companies, you don't have many personal clients, I wonder why, it's not hard to work out is it. YOUR ATTITUDE.

I have been in the trade 40 years, self employed for 28 of them, been an AC for 27 of them, I don't need to sub-contract to other Electrical contractors and do mostly council work like you, I have 3 operatives, turned over 400k this year, working for MY clients, but there you go, you decide, I don't care what you think or imply and I don't try to impress on nearly every post on this forum either.

My clients come first not my forum image.

 

[Manator]

This should not follow the route of personal jibes, a debate should state facts and only facts. Remember gentlemen this forum is for informative debate.

 

[steptoe]

Likewise I've read a lot of your posts. the way you condemn your 5WW as you call them when you don't even know them.

You suddenly went very quiet the other night when debating the swimming pool earth, someone who could see through you, made you go very very quiet indeed.

In many of your posts you have said most of your work is sub-contract to other Electrical contractors or companies, you don't have many personal clients, I wonder why, it's not hard to work out is it. YOUR ATTITUDE.

I have been in the trade 40 years, self employed for 28 of them, been an AC for 27 of them, I don't need to sub-contract to other Electrical contractors and do mostly council work like you, I have 3 operatives, turned over 400k this year, working for MY clients, but there you go, you decide, I don't care what you think or imply and I don't try to impress on nearly every post on this forum either.

My clients come first not my forum image.

I dont like the majority of 5WW, I dont hide that fact, I could count on one hand the number of short course guys that I have met that can actually do the job,

and I have come across at a conservative guess well over 300 of them via either personal contact or jobs they have done, I know they are 5WW by client admission and via phoning/talking to them etc, so its not simply assumption.

I went quiet for the reason that it was futile trying to explain to someone that obviously had a mindset of a differing nature and didnt want to listen to how earthing systems work in the UK

I sub contract for the reason that since I returned to the UK just over 5 years ago everyone wanted a credit rating from me that I didnt have, and it also made the wife a lot happier seeing a regular income rather than the big hits of SE and then the following lows

BTW, a majority of my sub work is for a previous employer that involves dealing direct with the public [they are a building firm and I am their primary spark]

I have in 5 years built up a very good portfolio of private clients [quite a lot of private landlords included] that took absolutely zero advertising to gain, purely word of mouth for every single private job I do, I dont advertise, my work does that for me.

this just keeps reminding me why I left the UK, to work where it is appreciated and people are actually licenced to do a proper job, and not cut corners.

I may not have been in the trade for quite so long as you, 23 years, but I have never ever left a job non compliant with the regs, I often have deviations from the regs as I believe the regs to be a minimum and sometimes to improve on that is a deviation, but to blatantly leave a job as non compliant with the current regs is, I believe, extremely bad practice, to say the least.

Im not on a forum to gain points, or get work, its one of the reasons my wife actually signed up in order to put my business on the 'find an electrician' thread, so I would not be connected to the business in any way,

I use this forum to have a chat, and hopefully help guide some people with their issues, not gain work,

but unfortunately some people do not wish to be helped and will simply continue to do substandard work,

DIYers I can understand, I will clearly state I think they are out of their depth, but if I still think they will do it will try and advise, hopefully they will take that advise,

as for so called sparks advocating other so called sparks do works that are substandard, what sort of response did you really expect me to give?

 

[Sharpend]

My input for what it's worth is that to are both right to some degree.

In a perfect world then Steps approach is one which should be adhered too, purely on the premise that if a jobs worth doing it worth doing it right, however in the current climate and mentality, people generally have a limited disposable income which they have to be advised as to what should be prioritised in the grand scheme of things to achieve a greater level of safety without compromising their current situation. So this would suggest Steve's approach may be suitable.

The only issue I take with Steve, based upon his last post in which he states that he does mostly council work, is I'm pretty sure council works insist on all aspects being brought up to current regulation standard which would include bonding etc. I know this has been the case for all the council work I've been involved with.

 

[steptoe]

Likewise I've read a lot of your posts. the way you condemn your 5WW as you call them when you don't even know them.

You suddenly went very quiet the other night when debating the swimming pool earth, someone who could see through you, made you go very very quiet indeed.

In many of your posts you have said most of your work is sub-contract to other Electrical contractors or companies, you don't have many personal clients, I wonder why, it's not hard to work out is it. YOUR ATTITUDE.

I have been in the trade 40 years, self employed for 28 of them, been an AC for 27 of them, I don't need to sub-contract to other Electrical contractors and do mostly council work like you, I have 3 operatives, turned over 400k this year, working for MY clients, but there you go, you decide, I don't care what you think or imply and I don't try to impress on nearly every post on this forum either.

My clients come first not my forum image.

not once did I ever say that.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

And as we all know the BGB is a recommendation, and he is not making the installation worse, but improving it, and like I said if they cannot afford to pay now, but are aware it needs to be done, then you can only do your best and not be expected to do it free.

I will not turn work away, it's in short supply, but I will not do any work that would leave an installation more dangerous than it already is, that's where I draw the line.

Steve, i agree with this and most of your related posts especially about making the install safer. But i as a Nic A/C could not do this and bet you dont show your test sheets to the assesor ?