Does non compliance with BS 7671 automatically mean non compliance with Part P?

[adammid]

Wondering if you would be able to help me out with a query that I have with complying with BS7671 and Part P of the building regs.

If BS 7671 is not fully complied with does that automatically mean that Part P is not complied with?

This is my query!

I know that it says in BS 7671 that if it's not obvious as to what equipment an isolator isolates then it should be labelled. Now in a domestic property it can be fairly obvious what isolator does what. However if the isolator is not labelled and it's not obvious what equipment it isolates, some could say that it does comply with BS 7671. But does that mean that it does not comply with Part P?

I know this is a non serious query in relation to the grand scale of things but it's something that has been mentioned and I was intrigued as to what the answer would be.

I know compliance with Part P is mandatory in a domestic install but BS 7671 is not mandatory but it's said that if a spark complies with everything in BS7671 then they would meet the requirements of Part P.

 

[Mark2spark]

A couple of musings.

Non labelling of an isolator could well be in compliance with an earlier edition of 7671, so part P would be satisfied, I suppose.

But 7671 isn't the only regs that you can use to satisfy part p, you can use European regs for instance as long as the "Reasonable provision shall be made in the design, installation, inspection and testing of electrical installations in order to protect persons from fire or injury" bit is seen to be covered.

Also "Sufficient information shall be provided so that persons wishing to operate, maintain or alter an electrical installation can do so with reasonable care" can be satisfied with a note attached to the CU that an isolator's equipment is unknown.

But the only part P thing is for new work. How can a new isolator be wired in and it not be known what the upstream device is?

 

[Doc Hudson]

As Mark2Spark points out, as Part P only relates to new work or additions & alteration in certain locations, I cannot see how anyone can have installed something and not know what they have just installed. I don't think there is actually a reg stating that any accessory has to be labeled, it is more along the lines of "appropriate documentation", and "information necessary" as mentioned in sections 132 and 514.

Doc H.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Wondering if you would be able to help me out with a query that I have with complying with BS7671 and Part P of the building regs.If BS 7671 is not fully complied with does that automatically mean that Part P is not complied with?

Erm...

NO..

as BS7671 allows departures.. look at the beginning of the book..

AND

part P general guidance only suggests that BS7671 is "ONE" way of satisfying part P....

Guinness

 

[Technician]

Part 'P' gives guidance on socket heights.

BS7671 only states that they should be

placed at a height that will not damage

the conductors in normal use.

No specific dimension is given.

Reg 553.1.6.

 

[adammid]

Thanks guys. Its a domestic property for the housing association that is to be rented out, therefore those that are renting the property may not know which isolator isolates which particular appliance. I totally agree that it wouldn't be difficult to work out all the same, however some could say its not obvious. Reg 537.2.2.6 states that an isolator should be clearly identified by position or durable marking. Basically the main contractor is saying as the isolator has not been labelled, I have not complied with BS 7671 and therefore the installation does not comply with Part P. Any thoughts of what I can say to get out of it. He will also not accept self adhesive labels, they must be engraved.

 

[betty swollocks]

I'm assuming the 'main contractor' is simply looking for a way to not pay you or with hold some payment?

I've done lots of this type of work over the years and have always been given a specification for each job, sometimes pages and pages of dross to follow.

I have come across this before in the spec and you have to follow it in the same way if they ask for a kitchen fan you have to fit one.

If it was me I would go to the wholesaler and pick up some accessories engraved with what you need, Click do a range of marked grid switches that you can retrofit

 

[adammid]

That's it Betty, but nothing is in the spec other than the installation must comply with BS 7671 and requirements of Part P. But contrary to this situation it has raised the question in my head that if BS 7671 is not complied with like in my example above have I really not complied with Part P.

I will prob fit the engraved ones as I do not want to fall out with the MC but still would like to know where I would stand if I didn't fit the labels.

 

[betty swollocks]

I don't think you will be prosecuted for non compliance under 7671 or part p for not labelling isolation switches in a domestic kitchen.

I do it, as I feel it's good practice, but I feel the guy is being what is technically called in the trade a

Total Wally And Twit about it

Fact of life whenever you work for anybody is while they hold the cash you may be required to smile & nod like an enthusiastic puppy

Only when you hold the cash should you refer to them by their technical name

 

[adammid]

I don't believe for one min that I would ever be prosecuted.

The MC is saying that as I have not complied with BS7671 and Part P then they are withholding payment. For me to change the switched fused spurs for manufacturer engraved ones and to cover the cost of time changing them over it will cost me in the region of

 

[betty swollocks]

I will do it, get my money that I'm owed up until now and then try and submit another bill for the changes and hope for the best.

good luck with that

We all learn the hard way so don't Let 'em wind you up

 

[Steve3948]

Reg 537.2.2.6 states that an isolator should be clearly identified by position or durable marking. Basically the main contractor is saying as the isolator has not been labelled,

So is it clearly identified by position, if so I would do nothing, issue certificate and submit notification, hold certificate until payment and make sure Part P notification comes to you first and not address, MC or builder.

 

[adammid]

Hi Steve,

There are two isolators, one switching a single socket for a washing machine and another for a dishwasher. It does not take a rocket scientist to work out which one does what. The isolator on the left does the dishwasher and the isolator to the right does the washing machine that is two cupboard spaces to the right of the dishwasher. Admitably the isolators are not directly above the appliances but that bcos there is a window sill above the worktop and not enough room for the isolators and in my defence the kitchen plan has changed so many times it would have been impossible to ever get the isolators to co-ordinate with the appliances.

Hob and cooker isolators are fine as they actually came engraved. The switched fused spurs were some that were in the stores so I used them and didn't feel it necessary for them to be engraved. Fool me!

 

[Steve3948]

This smacks very much as a reason to withhold payment.

I would stick a Dymo label on it and say pay up.

 

[Technician]

Could you submit a new invoice (dated) with

E & O.E on it?

Errors and Ommissions Excepted.

This means you COULD charge for work that was

not anticipated at the time of the original tender.

Only a thought.

 

[Sharpend]

I think the problem probably lies in the fact that the hob and cooker are engraved and the others are not, MC is probably thinking aestectically doesn't look good so is looking for a non compliance excuse to make it all look pretty!! Only my thoughts.

 

[Mark2spark]

If there's only a socket (or a flex outlet) fitted after the switch on the spur, then there's no appliance fitted? So how can you fit an engraved FCU if the consumer might fit the appliances a different way round? It would make the labelling wrong?