Electrical Installation Condition Report - Bathroom light

[phil d]

@phil d : Totally true and a great attitude, if only their were more tradesmen like you in the world. I think I should 'SCOOB' you, only, I'm not sure what 'SCOOB' actually means. According to urban dictionary it's: 

     "Scoob; when you're smoking marijuana out of a pipe or piece and you suck in too hard and you get ash (or 'scoobs') in your mouth." 

Not quite the meaning I had in mind, +1, thank you, vote up... etc  


The problem I have now with this electrician is that I can't trust him. I already caught him out on another point: 

    "C2 - 10. Bedroom light shade missing."

After I questioned it he backed down and agreed to re-code to C3. 


From his responses in our correspondence he talks a lot about not having enough time as a reason for F/I's. For example: 

    "The testing process doesn’t afford enough time to investigate these items fully and therefore F/I is required, usually on a time/material basis. ... The testing process simply doesn’t afford the time for us to call you about each and every item if you are not present.  Even when customers are present there simply  isn’t enough time to discuss each and every item" 

This was in response to an F/I item "Unknown spur destination in kitchen" after I asked him why he did not call me, being 200 miles from the property, I made a specific point of letting him know I was contactable.

Fair enough, he can't call about every issue, but come on. Really. Besides - it doesn't take a genius to work it out the spur is connected to the switch above the kitchen top (anyway, I'll drop this one here because it's another point of contention, possibly another thread - GRRR! ). 

The point I am making is not about the spurs more about his attitude. Surely when you quote for a job you allow sufficient time to do the job properly - it's not like this guy was cheap, he was well above the price quoted by other electricians - I went with him because I thought he might go the extra mile and afford the 2 minutes it would have took to figure out where the spur was connected. 


Whilst I am sure that some points, maybe most, on the EICR are perfectly valid, I can't trust this guy and quite honestly I'd rather not be having to deal with him. I certainly won't be dealing with him again once this has all reached it's conclusion. 

  

A guy once said to me, "it's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice".  I've always tried to live by this and also by being as helpful as I can to others, I frequently help people out on a principle of "when it costs me that's when it costs you", If I'm doing a job and they want lets say, a couple of screws tightening in a loose hinge, then what does it cost me? absolutely nothing! If I see someone stuck roadside unable to change a flat tyre, what does it cost me to stop and help them? Nothing! If the old lady down the road cannot change a lamp in her outside light, what would it cost me to help her? Nothing, except maybe a few moments of my time.

 I'm lucky at the moment, I'm in reasonably good health and have numerous skills that allow me to help others, it may not always be this way and I'd like to think that if ever the time comes when I can't do everything for myself then someone would be good enough to help me.

One of the biggest problems these days is too many people are only interested in financial gain, now I'm not a religious person in any respect but, sometimes there is more reward in the feeling you get inside after helping someone than you ever get from money.

One day I came across a breakdown on a motorway, it was a bank holiday weekend and the motorway was crawling, an old couple had broken down in lane 3, I towed them off the motorway to a retail park, they hadn't had a day out for years and now it was ruined for them. I rang the RAC and explained it was a major failure and would require a low loader, they agreed to send one out and also agreed to leave it for about 5 hours, then ring the old guy when they were 30 minutes away.This gave the couple a chance to wander around the shops, have a meal in one of the pubs, and he could have a few drinks as they wouldn't be driving home. OK it wasn't the day they were planning but it wasn't a complete right off, he tried to pay me for the "work" I'd done, what work? I was only being a good samaritan, my reward was seeing their faces change from sad and worried to happy and smiling, knowing they could still enjoy a day out despite the car breaking down.

 

[Doc Hudson]

From his responses in our correspondence he talks a lot about not having enough time as a reason for F/I's. For example: 

    "The testing process doesn’t afford enough time to investigate these items fully and therefore F/I is required, usually on a time/material basis. ... The testing process simply doesn’t afford the time for us to call you about each and every item if you are not present.  Even when customers are present there simply  isn’t enough time to discuss each and every item" 

I read that comment as " we are too incompetent to estimate a realistic price and duration for a typical inspection and test at an average domestic property".   That is of course assuming you didn't put pressure on to get it completed within a very short timescale.   They would appear to be out of their depth on both costing and undertaking of electrical inspections.

Doc H.

 

[Andy™]

    "The testing process doesn’t afford enough time to investigate these items fully and therefore F/I is required, usually on a time/material basis. ... The testing process simply doesn’t afford the time for us to call you about each and every item if you are not present.  Even when customers are present there simply  isn’t enough time to discuss each and every item" 


  

thing is, its sometimes hard to judge exactly how long something will take until you start. as such, estimate is sometimes hard to get right. he may not have expected many issues so estimated accordingly. other end is you estimate based on many issues then dont get the job because someone else didnt expect issues and priced it at less. i often give a price range of £xxx-£xxx, lower price based on reasonably stright forward, higher end on more awkward and tracing circuits etc

as for the missing shade being C2, is this no shade on a normal pendant? if so, then its not even codeable since there is no requirement to fit one, they dont come with one and ive never seen the instructions saying one must be fitted

immediately changing something thats been coded to a lower code when questioned screams desperate for work / not knowing what they are doing. possibly wants more work for fixing the non-existant problem hoping you will just agree to it being fixed, at your expense of course

 

[CinnamonDonkey]

They were not under any pressure, other then when can you get it done. They called the shots. They named the date, how long it would take and the price... I didn't even try to haggle them down even though they where the highest quote (I've been stung before going cheap). I even had to wait 6 weeks for them to do the job.

I did ask them to include the replacement of one light switch in with the price as I had asked my tenant if there was any issues she knew of before hand. 

According to the tenant 2 guys turned up at 8am and left at 1pm. It's a 3 bed semi with no outbuildings. My tenant did mention that she was unwell that day and that one of the guys apparently didn't want to be there because his wife was pregnant and he didn't want to catch something (understandable). 

Personally, I feel they knew that there would be need for a return visit and they where just looking to maximise profit. 

 

[Blue Duck]

Just out of curiosity are they council appointed contractors or did you find them in the yellow pages?

If you do have a copy of the 11th edition of bs7671 I'll give you a fiver for it and a fiver for any other you may find.

 

[CinnamonDonkey]

@Blue Duck I found him via an online search for electricians in the required postcode area. I can't remember which site it was that directed me to him unfortunately. He had the necessary credentials and interestingly his website does mentioned that he carries out work for the local council. I think it was this which partly convinced me that he would be a good choice, i.e. if the council use him then he's probably ok. 

It's very hard to choose an electrician from 200 miles away . 

 

 

[Andy™]

if the council use him then he's probably ok. 

 

:slap

 

[CinnamonDonkey]

@AndyTM: ... upon reflection, probably not one of my smartest decisions.  :facepalm:

 

[binky]

Council push prices down so much, only rough work makes a margin, not many good electricians will work to such low standards....

Can I suggest using Which? Trusted Trader, or 'Buy With Confidence' websites if the local Trading Standards is promoting that scheme. If you fall out with contractor, there is an arbitration process run by both schemes, though, in theory, you shouldn't fall out with anyone on these registers.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

According to the tenant 2 guys turned up at 8am and left at 1pm. It's a 3 bed semi with no outbuildings.

So 2 blokes x 5 hours = 10 man hours and they couldn't get enough time to do complete the PIR on a 3 bed semi..???  :C    

They must have been having one of the days like this... baddayexplode

Is there a ridiculous amount of circuits or something at the property ? 

otherwise it should have been a walk in the park...

I either quote on min half day (4hours)  to max full day (8 hours) labour for a typical semi.

OR

half hour per circuit + 1 hour per board + 1 hour for unforeseen searching for ends of circuits etc..

So a 6 circuit property would be approx. 5hrs,

8 circuit property = approx. 6 hours.

10 circuits split across two boards = 8 hours.

Never been too far out with that method in the past.

If by that time you haven't sussed out enough to establish if the installation is satisfactory or unsatisfactory for continued use then its....... :shakehead   headbang   :redcard    time!

UNLESS the house is absolutely crammed to the gunnel's full of junk restricting access to rooms..  

in which case its   Run-Away!!!    or you will be  eadHorse:

 

[Sharpend]

A guy once said to me, "it's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice".  I've always tried to live by this and also by being as helpful as I can to others, I frequently help people out on a principle of "when it costs me that's when it costs you", If I'm doing a job and they want lets say, a couple of screws tightening in a loose hinge, then what does it cost me? absolutely nothing! If I see someone stuck roadside unable to change a flat tyre, what does it cost me to stop and help them? Nothing! If the old lady down the road cannot change a lamp in her outside light, what would it cost me to help her? Nothing, except maybe a few moments of my time.

 I'm lucky at the moment, I'm in reasonably good health and have numerous skills that allow me to help others, it may not always be this way and I'd like to think that if ever the time comes when I can't do everything for myself then someone would be good enough to help me.

One of the biggest problems these days is too many people are only interested in financial gain, now I'm not a religious person in any respect but, sometimes there is more reward in the feeling you get inside after helping someone than you ever get from money.

One day I came across a breakdown on a motorway, it was a bank holiday weekend and the motorway was crawling, an old couple had broken down in lane 3, I towed them off the motorway to a retail park, they hadn't had a day out for years and now it was ruined for them. I rang the RAC and explained it was a major failure and would require a low loader, they agreed to send one out and also agreed to leave it for about 5 hours, then ring the old guy when they were 30 minutes away.This gave the couple a chance to wander around the shops, have a meal in one of the pubs, and he could have a few drinks as they wouldn't be driving home. OK it wasn't the day they were planning but it wasn't a complete right off, he tried to pay me for the "work" I'd done, what work? I was only being a good samaritan, my reward was seeing their faces change from sad and worried to happy and smiling, knowing they could still enjoy a day out despite the car breaking down.

Like your attitude Phil, don't let anybody/thing change it, the world would be a far better place with more of that. 

 

[ruston]

Like your attitude Phil, don't let anybody/thing change it, the world would be a far better place with more of that. 

I will second that , In my recent troubles I have seen the kindness and caring of people. It gives you strength , and restores the faith.

 

[CinnamonDonkey]

8 circuits:

  3 sockets: Upstairs/Downstairs/Kitchen (was built on as an extension)
  2 lights: Upstairs/Downstairs
  1 Cooker
  1 Alarm (now a single socket)
  1 Combi boiler

I wouldn't personally consider the access restrictive, no more that I would expect for a typical home. But then I'm not doing this for a living so I can't really make that call. 
 

 

[Murdoch]

How much did they charge you?

 

[CinnamonDonkey]

How much did they charge you?

£190 inclusive. Seemed an honest price for what amounts to 10 hours work. £40 over what other guys were quoting. But having never gone through this before I didn't know what the going rate is or what to expect. 

 

[Murdoch]

So £190 for 10 man hours. Way to low imho and does that include VAT?

 

[CinnamonDonkey]

I imagine the price is going to relative to where in the country the work is being carried out and the level of competition in that area. There certainly was not a shortage of electricians available. Also, like I say, he provided the highest quote. This was another reason I felt he might be the better choice.  As those quoting the lower prices may be more inclined to try and pick up extra work along the way because they had to make up the shortfall from under quoting to get the job. 

That price does include VAT. 
 

 

[Murdoch]

So about £16 per hour before business expenses.....

Not enough to make the hassle worth while if you consider lack of holiday pay and sick pay, lack of pension etc

 

[CinnamonDonkey]

I don't make my living as and an Electrician so it would be unreasonable for me to comment on what is a fair price. All I can say is I didn't set the price, I didn't even haggle. There are obviously lots of influencing factors that go into setting the market rate. 

Granted, the  market rate may be low in this area but that doesn't justify trying to fleece the customer.  

It's only because I have a BTEC HND in Electrical & Electronic Engineering and A Honours Degree in Electronics (from almost 30 years ago) that some aspects of the report stood out as strange. Most people probably would just accept what is written on the report without question. 

I know how much effort it can take to become an Electrician and I have a pretty good idea of what a day's work for you guys is likely to involve - so much respect.


@Murdoch Where are you based? It would be interesting to hear what the going rate is in other parts of the country.   

 

 

[CinnamonDonkey]

... ok, correction, almost 25 years ago (not 30), before someone starts doing the maths