fire rated downlights

[steptoe]

Evans electric your on the money pal, I do the same regardless fit fire rated wherever they are, go home and sleep at night knowing ive done the job the best possible way.... I pay about

 

[Manator]

shed69, I have not, nor has the NICEIC ever instructed anyone to fit fire rated downlights in a none fire barrier. That is the point here, what is the use of fitting something that is not required, and in the event of a fire offers no protection to the structure of the ceiling. For your information normal plasterboard IS NOT fire rated, 30 minute protection is given by fire rated often pink boards, 1 hour protection is given by double boarding with staggared jointing. You can get various thicknesses of boards but if you ask about the fire rating of them from the manufacturer you will find what I have said is correct. Now given the fact that your standard kitchen ceiling is not fire rated, why would installing fire rated downlights improve anything? Correctly installed fittings is a must even if they are open top downlights or enclosed fire rated ones, I often fit both. I also fit smoke hoods with, yes with fire rated downlights if the requirements for protection demand it.

What you are saying is your opinion and is not based on fact, reading through the building regulations will show you this. Besides the building regulations B, and of course P there are several more that have a direct bearing on the fitting of downlights, do you know any of them?

 

[Doc Hudson]

Also, Doc, call your NAPIT, nic, or whoever and ask them, they will tell you the same... I don't understand why this arguement goes on for the sake of a few quid and it really annoys me! I'd rather make a few quid less.....

Shed69, You are assuming inquiry's have not been made. Also as the correct approved document has been highlighted to you and you have been unable to identify the regulation you consider backs up your personal opinion. This confirms that whilst you are entitled to your opinion you are still factually incorrect stating it is a specific requirement of the building regulations, that all down lighters must be fire rated.

I'm a little concerned that sparks are saying fire rated are not required... I think you'll find they are wherever a habitable room or escape route exists above.... So pretty much anywhere downstairs unless it's a flat roof ie kitchen on rear of property.

Forums such as this can get very full of individuals personal opinions and just saying go and ask someone else is not the best advice to clarify an anomaly. Also discussing how easy or hard they are to terminate cables or the price difference of one fitting over another is actually irrelevant to question if something is a regulation or not. For the sake of everyone, including those learning within the industry, I am sure you will agree it is best to keep a balance between, preferable practice, personal opinion, and essential compliance and not muddy the waters further by stating preferences as regulations. It is nothing to do with arguing about using one type of fitting or its monetary value. It is about providing valid information so others can make a balanced accurate judgment in their daily work.

Doc H.

 

[Theorysparky]

Shed

Fit them dont fit them

Read the advice given and make your own choice

cos you aint gonna change the views of the DADDIES of this forum......

 

[Evans Electric]

the fact still remains it is NOT a requirement,why do some people keep saying it is when , if they could be bothered to look up the relevant regs, they would find out its not.

Im a little concerned that people are spouting opinions off and stating them to be facts.

I just had a quick look at the Building Regs , very ambivilous TBH also very boring , but a normal ceiling between floors seems to be 30min fire rated , kitchen ceilings are fire compartments .

Perhaps someone who knows the Building Regs could enlighten us as to EXACTLY where we DO fit fire rated downlights .

Needless to say , I shall continue to fit them in all cases under Section 2. Para 9 Chapter 17 of The Cover your Arse On site Guide . My wholesaler does not sell the other type without ordering them in.

I also think Shed asked a reasonable question but has taken a bit of unwarranted flak TBH .

 

[Theorysparky]

That would be due to his attitude then !!!!!

 

[Manator]

I just had a quick look at the Building Regs , very ambivilous TBH also very boring , but a normal ceiling between floors seems to be 30min fire rated , kitchen ceilings are fire compartments . Perhaps someone who knows the Building Regs could enlighten us as to EXACTLY where we DO fit fire rated downlights .

Needless to say , I shall continue to fit them in all cases under Section 2. Para 9 Chapter 17 of The Cover your Arse On site Guide . My wholesaler does not sell the other type without ordering them in.

I also think Shed asked a reasonable question but has taken a bit of unwarrented flak TBH .

One reason why I do know that normal plasterboard is not fire rated is because of a recent job that I did, we had to get the data from the manufacturer to prove the plasterboard had been tested to the required standards, the building supplies and even one of the plasterers said that normal board did indeed give 30 minute protection, however, the manufacturer did not follow this logic, and would only give the required certificates for their fire rated boards, and none other.

Other materials we used on this job included glass which had to have the same fire rating certificate, and the normal Ali frame had to be changed to steel, all of which required a certificate. If in any doubt always contact the manufacturer.

On a side note I always well 99% of the time fit fire rated downlights anyway, simply because I tend to stay with what I know works for me. If we start talking about properly fitting, I have yet to see any downlight protected from insulation via insulation bridges or the like, I am not saying any member on this forum fits them wrong, just that I have never seen any fitted correctly.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

Shed69, You are assuming inquiry's have not been made. Also as the correct approved document has been highlighted to you and you have been unable to identify the regulation you consider backs up your personal opinion. This confirms that whilst you are entitled to your opinion you are still factually incorrect stating it is a specific requirement of the building regulations, that all down lighters must be fire rated.Forums such as this can get very full of individuals personal opinions and just saying go and ask someone else is not the best advice to clarify an anomaly. Also discussing how easy or hard they are to terminate cables or the price difference of one fitting over another is actually irrelevant to question if something is a regulation or not. For the sake of everyone, including those learning within the industry, I am sure you will agree it is best to keep a balance between, preferable practice, personal opinion, and essential compliance and not muddy the waters further by stating preferences as regulations. It is nothing to do with arguing about using one type of fitting or its monetary value. It is about providing valid information so others can make a balanced accurate judgment in their daily work.

Doc H.

shed69 never said Nic, Napit etc insisted on you fitting fire rated lights. What he commented on is corrrect (from the NIC helpline) in as much you may not have to fit them but it would be a better job.

 

[batty]

I was always under the impression plastered plasterboard is a fire barrier even if its only 30 minutes i cannot see how it cannot be it just does not burn try throwing a bit on a fire. As for manufacturers i would assume they would prefer you to buy fire rated as it probably twice the price and if you have a chipboard floor that has not been up i would think that is quite a good fire barrier too. Having said all this i generally fit fire rated down lights anyway standard ones just are not so available and you get used to what you fit. It is a building reg to have a vapour barrier on floors with a loft above though and most fire rated down lights should have this as part of the design they should be used on upstairs floors.

 

[Ash]

For Elecsa electricians

http://www.elecsa.co.uk/Documents/Contractor-Documents/Technical-Downloads/Recessed-light-fittings-guide.aspx

This guide doesn't say you have to, but recommends:

Good practice and workmanship requirements would tend to suggest that suitably fire-rated light fittings could be selected and installed in all instances, thus without

doubt protecting liability as far as possible. Other suitable alternatives may be used

to provide equal levels of protection, such as fire hoods, boxing-in, etc, but these

often prove more difficult and time consuming to fit.

Fortunately, many manufacturers now offer suitable fire rated fittings, with the

result that costs are now more reasonable, and in some instances not much

greater than that of a basic non-fire rated alternative. Such fittings may also assist in

dealing with many of the other practical topics covered in this book

The Elecsa electrician may ultimately safeguard his liability by only selecting fire-rated products, unless specifically instructed or advised formally, by an

authoritative body such as an architect, Building Control Officer or designer that

such fittings are not needed.

I generally stick to Fire-rated not because I don't know the regs, but because it feels like a more solid fitting and I dislike the idea of the halogen bulbs being so exposed.

EDIT

Thought I'd add the next page too which has regs

Where does it say it?Approved Document B

 

[Doc Hudson]

For Elecsa electricianshttp://www.elecsa.co.uk/Documents/Contractor-Documents/Technical-Downloads/Recessed-light-fittings-guide.aspx

This guide doesn't say you have to, but recommends:

I generally stick to Fire-rated not because I don't know the regs, but because it feels like a more solid fitting and I dislike the idea of the halogen bulbs being so exposed.

EDIT

Thought I'd add the next page too which has regs

Here we see the subtle difference between what we prefer to do and what we have to do. As well as a debating platform for more mature electricians, one of the points of the forum is to help inform younger less experienced members of some of the problems encountered and possible solutions in their daily electrical work. It is quite possible a customer may ask an electrician to quote for installing a set of lights they have bought themselves. If two other electricians give a price and but the third says no you cant fit these they are not fire rated, you have got to buy some more expensive fittings. I can hazard a guess as to who the customer will choose, unless the third electrician has some factual reference to back up their opinion. In these times where work is quiet and often with less profit margin it can be advantageous for an electrician to have a clearer understanding of what margins and tolerances they can work to safely.

From Ash's we quote we see a key point;

the wiring system shall be sealed according to the degree of fire-resistance (if any) prescribed for the respective element of building construction before penetration.

 

[shed69]

Right guys after much crying today due to my attitude problem and been a youngster in my field of work for the last 20 years.... Here's the facts, if it's a single boarded ceiling between floors and the board isn't fire rated then you don't have to use fire rated fittings. If it is double boarded then this equates to 60min fire rated ceiling and therefore fire rated fittings must be used. Regardless of the ceiling leading to a loft space they have to be fire rated.... However I would still fit FR down lighters anywhere and everywhere to be sure as I do...

 

[Monkeyboy]

Who is this Shed69 guy? He seems to know some stuff..... Basically his last post does explain in full the mystery surrounding down lights.....

Good work garden shed !

 

[shed69]

Thank you monkeyboy, however I must inform you that if I was a garden shed supplied from a pme or a tnc-s as the daddies probably like to call it, I would require an earth rod and a divorce from the earth of the supply......

I am simply shed69!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[lineman]

If I install downlights I fit fire rated ones. Prevents needless thinking as to whether they need to be or not.

 

[Monkeyboy]

Lar lar lar I'm not listening...... Garden Shed !

 

[Manator]

A little update for you on the subject of fire protection, we had a visit from building control today who was happy if we boarded a 5m corridoor in normal plasterboard, his thoughts? Well with skim on it would give 30 minute protection anyway.

Just goes to show some are happy and some are not.

 

[PC Electrics]

I uploaded a document into the downloads section yonks and yonks ago on this subject.

It's here:

Part B - Fire Safety - Downloads - Talk.electricianforum.co.uk... a forum with a difference.

Now, I've just been to try and download it to check it's the one I think it is, but was told I needed to be a subscribed member !! SHouldn't my previous donation cover that?

Can you sort it for me Doc? Or must I subscribe?

 

[Theorysparky]

+1

Same issue with me,,,,,didnt want to make a fuss though

 

[jlowjohn]

Have to say that I have enjoyed your wrestles of preference , fact and quote.

I declare the winner to be the customer.... If all sparks cared enough

To clarify issues or exhaust possibilities for the better finish, the industry would be a safer place !

HAIL THE SPARKS, THE MASTER TRADE !