Fukushima

[wozz]

Is this stressing anyone else out? 

It doesnt seem to be getting any better, and the company that allowed this situation to exist dont seem entirely competent at cleaning up their mess either!

400 tonnes of irradiated water a day to store is mind boggling.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23807453

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23918882

 

[Apache]

[i still want to watch tv when dark. Nuclear only real way of meeting our power needs]

 

[Technician]

Not true

I think I know where Canoe is coming from on this one.

The annoying thing is that we have never developed the

technology for ourselves and we are now faced with the

prospect of buying it in from the competitors at what is,

IMHO, a greater cost than what it would have been if

we had made that development happen.

It LOOKS as if we are being pushed down the nuclear

road and even as late as 1997 the Liberal Party Manifesto

was opposed to nuclear power.  This may have meant an

abandonment of the nuclear deterrent.

 

[wozz]

If you look in to the history of this they were told on several occasions the generators were in the wrong place. 

Now they are having unknown levels of radiation escaping and appear to be handling it terribly and still don't know the extent, this is the ocean this crap is ending up in.  There doesn't seem to be much pressure from the international community for the, to get to grips with this situation. 

I don't think it's fair without info to cast doubt over our nuclear standards. 

 

[ProDave]

I think I know where Canoe is coming from on this one.

The annoying thing is that we have never developed the

technology for ourselves and we are now faced with the

prospect of buying it in from the competitors at what is,

IMHO, a greater cost than what it would have been if

we had made that development happen.

Just like to correct you there.

We WERE world leaders in nuclear power. We started our nuclear research program just after WW2. We built many of the worlds first research reactors and indeed some of the first power generating reactors including all the Magnox first generation power stations.

Sadly what happened was in the 1980's the government started the process of closing down the UKAEA and that is the point we lost our nuclear research and development capabilities. At that point the Dounreay fast breeder reactors were working and generating power and had demonstrated the technology that could have been used in large scale power stations if we had not been so short sighted (a larger one was already planned)

So sadly if we want new nuclear power stations now, we have to buy them in from a less short sighted country that still has the capability to design and build them.

But on the bright side, we are, in a small way, still pursuing nuclear fusion research, but that's still at least 20 years away from being viable (funny it's been 20 years away ever since I can remember) 

The trouble nuclear has, is when things go wrong, they go wrong in a big way.  I still think it's true that they don't normally just "go wrong" Chernobyl went bang as a result of unauthorised experiments (and arguably an unsafe design not capable of shutting itself down automatically) and Fukushima was the victim of a tsunami, though again arguable it was built in the wrong place, and with insufficient backup systems to have prevented the meltdown. I seem to recall there was the very basic problem of no power to run the cooling pumps. It seems nobody anticipated loss of grid connection and therefore nobody thought to include diesel generators for the emergency systems.

 

[Technician]

Pro Dave;  That is very informative.  I do appreciate that

we WERE leaders in Nuclear Power and that lead was lost.

I was in Calder Hall as a schoolboy and was told that the

power from nuclear would in time be cheaper than that from

"conventional" means. Calder Hall had been operating at

that time for about 10 years.

Chernobyl was the consequence of a miscomprehension of

the importance of the "void coefficient" in the reactor design.

This led to instability at low power and the development of a

hydrogen bubble.  Hindsight led to the (tacit) admission that

because of the secrecy surrounding military nuclear operations

civilian applications were not subject to a regime of scrutiny

that may have avoided it, because this meant co-operation

between America and Russia would have been necessary and

for some, this was hard to swallow.

 

[Andy™]

 I seem to recall there was the very basic problem of no power to run the cooling pumps. It seems nobody anticipated loss of grid connection and therefore nobody thought to include diesel generators for the emergency systems.

was reading a bit about it last night

there was backup. at least 2 generators per reactor. but they were in the basement of each reactor and got flooded. there was an external one higher up that didnt get flooded, but it couldnt be conencted becuase the control gear was in the basement with the others, under water

and apparantly, the design was queried during construction, but never got changed

 

[OnOff]

In the paper today it seems the storage tanks are leaking in part due to their bolted construction. New tanks to be welded apparently.

 

[ProDave]

was reading a bit about it last night

there was backup. at least 2 generators per reactor. but they were in the basement of each reactor and got flooded. there was an external one higher up that didnt get flooded, but it couldnt be conencted becuase the control gear was in the basement with the others, under water

and apparantly, the design was queried during construction, but never got changed

That would be hilarious, if the consequences were not so serious.  you just could not make it up could you.

 

[wozz]

I believe the generators initially failed as they were water cooled by sea water, the sea water pumps failed and then the generators were swamped, not the it matters as they were going to gt swamped anyway. 

The one (or pair) are higher and air cooled so no problems. They have known about the problem for years and it seems chose to do very little about it. 

I can't believe the bit about the 100milliservents leaking and the method of measurement only went up to 100 millisevents then it was actually 1800!

i wonder if they had some more important neighbours closer there would be more pressure on them so sort this out! 

 

[revjames]

we have gone so far down the nuclear road now it would be hard to turn around. In Devon they are up in arms over a plan to build a massive wind farm 8 miles off the isle of Lundy with 700' high turbines. Great when theres wind but when there isnt they actually consume a considerable amount of power to keep ticking over.

 

[NozSpark]

Jeez Rev, you should have a look along the coast by me... they're putting something like another 168 more turbines up...on top of the existing 60 odd that we already have...

Its starting to look like a blender for ships

 

[revjames]

whatever floats your boat Nozzy....

 

[Andy™]

whatever floats your bath Nozzy....

fixed that for you

 

[Apache]

Is this one of those spoonerisms? :innocent

 

[steptoe]

ya know, I was looking at this and thinking Im glad my names not Shima,