HELP! Huge Bill 4 Tank Replacement, Invoice Nonsensical, Need Help 4 My Mum! :(

[Dawn]

Hi everyone. Really need some help here for my mum, hoping someone can offer their expertise… Background: I’ve just come home to visit my single mum of 58, who has learning difficulties and works all the hours God sends in a low income job, to find she’s had no hot water for the past 2 3 weeks. She hired an electrician she doesn’t know, and I’m afraid he’s been running rings round her – or just not very good at his job (he did electrocute himself the first time he came over!) Full disclosure, I know nothing about plumbing or electrics, but he takes weeks to respond to her, shows up late at night, hasn’t written a proper invoice, is duplicating charges and wants to charge her over £1,000. I got a plumber out today to get his feedback – he seems to agree things don’t add up – but really need some independent advice now!

Technical Info

We have a very old tank I think with two emersion heaters on an Economy 7 system. Original problem was that there was no hot water, for which the electrician charged my mum (twice!) for fixing the thermostat. He then charged her another £175 for a new timer. None of this fixed the problem. Apparently it was only when he came back a third time that he noticed the tank was damaged and leaking (must have been a very small rupture though as leak was not going through the floor, just wetting it.) So he then charged for the draining and removal of the old tank (£80) and says that replacing the tank is going to cost £600, plus £190 for ‘refit/re-pipe new tank and commission clear air locks in pipe’ bringing her total bill to £1,000. He says he has to get a special order made to measure tank because our airing cupboard is small and they don’t often make them that size anymore (400mm diameter).

Questions

I’ve written a letter of complaint basically saying we’re looking for a second opinion because there’s no grounds for all those earlier charges since he didn’t correctly diagnose the problem. (I’m privately concerned that the tank may have been fixable, but since it’s now been removed that ship has sailed…) But no one likes having to do that sort of thing, and I want to be fair to the bloke, but also protect my mum, who really can’t afford this, so I need someone who knows what they’re talking about to help me out! So my main questions are:

1.       Does this sound dodgy to you guys too?

2.       Is it fair for us, at least, to hold off paying him until the new tank is installed and we can ascertain whether the timer etc. is even faulty?

3.       Might there be a more cost-effective heating option for my mum than paying nearly £800 for a new tank?

4.       What does ‘refit/re-pipe new tank and commission clear air locks in pipe’ even mean???

Thanks so much in advance to anyone who can offer any wisdom… really tearing my hair out over this!

p.s. I can share my draft letter to the electrician, if anyone wants to see it or it might bring clarity…

 

[Manator]

Hi Dawn and welcome to the forum. It does sound like a lot of work has been done to attain more money.

If we take the symptom (no hot water) an electrician would take roughly half an hour to diagnose what the problem would be. Simple test methods done properly would find the problem and therefore provide a guide for fixing.

The main reasons why your mother would not have hot water is no power (timer malfunction), power but no output, heater element malfunction or thermostat problems. All of these faults are easily identifiable.

The leak could have been caused by the attending electrician, but could never be proved.

Replacing a water heater of this type is a plumbers job and not an electrician, it sounds to myself that no proper testing was carried out, and he was doing work that is not covered by his trade.I would strongly advise you to get proper help and do not allow your mother to deal with this person direct without you being there.

 

[Andy™]

1: sounds dodgy.

2: dont pay until the problem is fixed and he gives you a receipt / invoice

3: combi boiler instead, but sounds like its electric only and no gas?

4: after draining the system, air will get in. usually straight forward to get it all out

really, this is mostly a plumbers job, although there is nothing stopping a sparky doing it (personally, i would change a tank but usually pass it onto a plumber)

make arrangements so that there is always someone else there when he is

has the tank been replaced yet? it reads as though he has charged to remove the old one but not yet fitted a new one? very odd, makes no sense doing it that way

 

[Sharpend]

Dawn I don't wish to sound rude so please don't take this wrong, if you mum has learning difficulties does she not qualify for assistance via the council? Perhaps these may have been able to assist with the issues in your absence??

it certainly does sound as though your mum has been fleeced by an opportunist. 

Personally is advise that you seek to find as much info on this 'electrician' as you can then go from there. 

 

[sprocketflup]

Which part of Dorset is your mother based in Dawn?

 

[ProDave]

The replacement tankitself may cost £500 or more especially if ot really has to be cuistom made.

But the real issue here is charging for his incopmetence. it sounds like he didn't diagnose the fault properly and fixed it by trial and error, charging all the time for the time and pats he was using, some of which may have been unecessary.

I will do immersion heater changes on a good tank, but if the tank looks the  least bit dodgy I refer it to a plumber who usually replaces the tank.  If the tank is old and on it's last legs you are only delaying the inevitable if you can "get away" without changing it this time so it might as well be done.

The trouble with this job is she never got an estimate first so was unprepared for the amount and cost of the work needed, and doesn't have a proper itemised invoice so she doen't even know exactly what she is being charged for and if all of it is fair and correct or not.

 

[Doc Hudson]

or just not very good at his job (he did electrocute himself the first time he came over!)

Is he actually qualified at anything. He sounds more like a have a go at anything handyman. I would want to know if he carries any public liability insurance covering the work he does. You only mention the diameter of the cylinder, how much height have you got to work with?  a 1050mm x 400mm can be purchased for approx. £233, including delivery. http://www.coppercylinder.co.uk/1050-x-400-direct-hot-water-cylinder-economy-7.html

Doc H.

 

[Dawn]

Thank you all so much for your rapid feedback.

Manator - I'm concerned about what you said about how the leak could have been caused by the electrician, but that we can't prove it. That's hundreds of pounds we don't have What would you advise? Might it be useful to ask the electrician for a written record of the work he did, i.e. the checks he carried out, etc. to see if they match standard practice? Particularly if he was messing around with something that he wasn't qualified to in the first place? I don't want to believe that someone could get away with something like that and that there's nothing we can do about it...

Andy - you're correct, he's removed the old tank and at present we are tank-less. I believe we are electricity only, will let you know if I've gotten that wrong. Does that mean a replacement tank is the only way to go? And, when you say in response to point 4 that it's straightforward - are you saying people would normally charge less for a job like that?

Sharpend - no offense taken. You might be right, but such support has never been set up. Her difficulties are not severe, she works full time, is pretty much independent, but she tends to be far too nice and trusting of strangers and gets easily flustered/confused by technical language she doesn't understand. Her repsonse tends to be to become anxious and just go along with whatever because she feels insecure about not understanding. Which is why I'm so angry - really feel like she's been taken advantage of... And wish I'd been involved from the beginning, but she "didn't want to worry me".

Sprocketflup - we're in Swanage.

ProDave - I think the tank is very old, so it's comforting to know this was probably inevitable anyway. Is it possible to charge people for incompetence under circumstances like this? Really want to minimise the financial impact and stress for her, so would be willing to. How does one go about doing that? Is it just a question of sending him a written complaint and dealing with him directly, or is there some kind of other institution that mediates stuff like this? (I rent myself, so landlords have always dealt with this sort of thing on my behalf...)

Doc Hudson - the dimensions of the space the tank was in are as follows: 75 cm across / 107 cm high / 46 cm deep

(Although there is some hollow space around the edge, separated by a wooden panel which could maybe be removed to enlarge the space?)

Also, you mention public liability insurance - should I ask him about that? What does it mean if he has it?

Can't thank you all enough!!! Feeling better already...

 

[Manator]

Thank you all so much for your rapid feedback.

Manator - I'm concerned about what you said about how the leak could have been caused by the electrician, but that we can't prove it. That's hundreds of pounds we don't have What would you advise?Now that the tank as been removed there is really no way of knowing. Might it be useful to ask the electrician for a written record of the work he did, i.e. the checks he carried out, etc. to see if they match standard practice? Particularly if he was messing around with something that he wasn't qualified to in the first place? I don't want to believe that someone could get away with something like that and that there's nothing we can do about it... Unfortunately this does happen, there are good and bad tradesmen and your situation sadly is common.

Andy - you're correct, he's removed the old tank and at present we are tank-less. I believe we are electricity only, will let you know if I've gotten that wrong. Does that mean a replacement tank is the only way to go? And, when you say in response to point 4 that it's straightforward - are you saying people would normally charge less for a job like that? If you have a gas supply a cheap good all round solution would to have a combi boiler installed, hot water would then be on demand and as it as already cost £1000 would have been a good option. A good tradesman would have given you this option.

Sharpend - no offense taken. You might be right, but such support has never been set up. Her difficulties are not severe, she works full time, is pretty much independent, but she tends to be far too nice and trusting of strangers and gets easily flustered/confused by technical language she doesn't understand. Her repsonse tends to be to become anxious and just go along with whatever because she feels insecure about not understanding. Which is why I'm so angry - really feel like she's been taken advantage of... And wish I'd been involved from the beginning, but she "didn't want to worry me".

Sprocketflup - we're in Swanage.

ProDave - I think the tank is very old, so it's comforting to know this was probably inevitable anyway. Is it possible to charge people for incompetence under circumstances like this? Really want to minimise the financial impact and stress for her, so would be willing to. How does one go about doing that? Is it just a question of sending him a written complaint and dealing with him directly, or is there some kind of other institution that mediates stuff like this? (I rent myself, so landlords have always dealt with this sort of thing on my behalf...)

I would get as much information as you can and write a formal complaint to the electrician if he is registered with any one of the scheme providers for Part P you could report him to them.

Doc Hudson - the dimensions of the space the tank was in are as follows: 75 cm across / 107 cm high / 46 cm deep

(Although there is some hollow space around the edge, separated by a wooden panel which could maybe be removed to enlarge the space?)

Also, you mention public liability insurance - should I ask him about that? What does it mean if he has it?

This is required by all the scheme providers, should you have to take court action his insurance would mean that you get paid out and not left with a hefty bill because he cannot afford the case.

Can't thank you all enough!!! Feeling better already...

Please see my red, I would also mention the advise already given above. Does he have a trading name? what has has he put on his invoice? and why is he invoicing when the job is not complete?

 

[Andy™]

since he has removed the tank, then he's done it for 2 reasons. either the get a custom made one built to match, or most likely to hide the evidence that he has broke it. you should demand the tank back, since im sure he would have removed it for the first reason

definitely complain and ask for a detailed breakdown of exactly what has been done and why. it does sound like he's just bodging his way through swapping parts and hoping itll eventually work, as Dave suggested. also, has he left any of the old parts that were replaced? if he has, then you could get them tested then demand payment back for replacing something that works and is not faulty

if you have gas then get a few estimates from local plumbers to install a combi

 

[Murdoch]

Regarding the invoices your mum has received, have you seen them ? And do they detail the work done? How has your mum paid him, cash, cheque, or bacs? 

This sounds rather awful to me.

Could you be there when he next visits?

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Andy - you're correct, he's removed the old tank and at present we are tank-less.

Ok so this may sound daft but.....

If I was working at someone's property and I removed something without their consent then basically I am stealing something that does not belong to me.

So this "electrician" has removed a water tank with no written contractual agreement detailing, schedule of work, costs, estimated duration etc... 

and even if the tank did need replacing, it is your property and has some scrap value (assuming its a copper cylinder) that you could redeem via a registered recycling yard.

From my perspective this bloke has stolen something from you........ 

(unless he can produce some written evidence such as a signed quote/estimate/contract agreement.)

Also if I have removed some "trade waste" (i.e.  waste produce whilst going about my normal business doing work for monetary gain), with the customers consent...

then I would need an appropriate license for carrying and disposing of trade waste correctly...

I would hazard a guess this bloke is NOT a licensed carrier of trade waste!

and that technically he has stolen some property to which he has no written proof that he has ownership of!

So ask him to return your property in the same condition it was removed..

if he cannot tell him you will be charging him £800 to put right his unauthorised work..

also tell him to cancel any debts he alleges you owe him..

with a comment that if he does not, you will pursue him for stealing your property without your written consent

and leaving you without a working water system for an unreasonable length of time.

and you will be reporting him to the local council for being an un-licensed trade waste carrier...

Then get a more competent and professional person to come and sort the work correctly. 

Basically the blokes a cowboy...

I would not let near my property again!

Guinness

 

[NozSpark]

I think that you might find this of more use than anything

https://www.gov.uk/doorstep-selling-regulations

Basically if they don't give you a contract with a 14 day cooling off period before work starts (unless you sign an exemption) then you can cancel any contract that they had is null and void

TBH I'd guess that most of us don't comply with it,, but then again most of us are pretty honest people,,, personally I've done work for vunerable people and I've always made sure that they contact a family member, and get them to contact me, before I do any work

 

[Rob_the_rich]

+1 to what special location has said, he has stolen your Mum's cylinder, and has probably scrapped it for a few quid. If it were your Mum's jewelry there would be no question about the action you would be taking.

 

[Manator]

This is why I like forums like this, I never thought of the theft angle but it is right, also the waste licence. The more input the more information you get.

Well done guys good information given here, and thoughts.

 

[Essex1]

The op has said that the quote was for removal and replacement of the tank so no theft there.  Once the quote was accepted the tank became the property of the 'tradesman'. It then becomes his own waste so no waste carriers licence required either. 

This is whole saga is awful. Unfortunately it is after the fact now and almost impossible to do anything.

 

[kerching]

I cannot see where the OP,says it was 'quoted for removal.....'

i may well have missed it and if so then I apologise.

i do however have mitigating circumstances......I am currently in Wiltshire and trying to come to terms with the workings of the South along with the amount of Jaeger Bombs my daughter seems to think i can manage

 

[Essex1]

I cannot see where the OP,says it was 'quoted for removal.....'

i may well have missed it and if so then I apologise.

i do however have mitigating circumstances......I am currently in Wiltshire and trying to come to terms with the workings of the South along with the amount of Jaeger Bombs my daughter seems to think i can manage

'Draining and removal of old tank - £80'

 

[kerching]

'Draining and removal of old tank - £80'

So he then charged for the draining and removal of the old tank (£80) and says that

he charged for it...it does not appear to say he QUOTED for it, just did it

 

[Essex1]

So he then charged for the draining and removal of the old tank (£80) and says that

he charged for it...it does not appear to say he QUOTED for it, just did it

Fair comment. I would imagine this was discussed before starting.