Insulated But Not Sheathed.....

[NozSpark]

What do you guys think of insulated but not sheathed cables within a locked enclosure that Joe public (park home residents) are expected to access?

These cables are within a meter cabinet and all the cables are either site or occupier owned,,, access is by cabinet key

There's also no OCPD at the meter cabinet, but they are protected by a B40 mcb at a dist panel which is in someone's back garden...... I'm not that keen on that either

 

[Evans Electric]

A pic would be good Noz . 

I guess the cabinet is the outer sheath ,  why does Joe Public need to access? 

Looking at the title of this post .............is'nt that how James Bond's house is wired  ?

Just getting in before The Revo.

 

[Rob_the_rich]

I think a key is a better mode of access to an enclosure than a screwdriver, which is the normal method. I would put a "warning 240 volts" label on the cabinet door though, if it is not obviously an electrical cabinet, and possibly a remote isolation label with info on location of the mcb inside the enclosure.

I suppose it depends on who would gain access, and why. Is it just for meter readers?

Could a barrier be installed in there? like a removeable panel with holes cut out, since it is within the enclosure it would need to be fire resistant.

 

[Sidewinder]

... since it is within the enclosure it would need to be fire resistant...

Why?

 

[NozSpark]

Ok,,,

So they have a GRP cabinet with a 3ph db in it and they have some insulated cables going to a photocell...

And each park home has a meter cabinet with a good 6" of sheath stripped back off the tails.

Each park home is protected by a B40 mcb in the 3ph db and now and then they trip so the park homes owners have to reset the MCB

 

[Sidewinder]

Not "why" ing you Noz.

 

[NozSpark]

Not "why" ing you Noz.

I know,,,, just trying to describe it better for the FSOTY

 

[Rob_the_rich]

Why?

I was thinking of 526.8 and therefore 526.5

 

[Sidewinder]

That says nothing about fire resistance of materials within enclosures made to a product standard.

The reg only relates to an enclosure, i.e. the bit enclosing, must consist of fire resistant building materials as tested to BS 476-4 if it is a rartial enclosure. Think skeleton/mantel borads.

To fit a division in an enclosure built to a product standard, you would be modifying the standard enclosuure, thys compliance with the relevant product standard, i.e. the EN 61439 series would be required.

 

[ProDave]

Ok,,,

So they have a GRP cabinet with a 3ph db in it and they have some insulated cables going to a photocell...

And each park home has a meter cabinet with a good 6" of sheath stripped back off the tails.

Each park home is protected by a B40 mcb in the 3ph db and now and then they trip so the park homes owners have to reset the MCB

What does the photocell do?

Why not rewire the photocell with sheathed cable?

And rewire the meter tails with the ends prepared properly not stripped back 6"

From what I have seen of park home cabinets, they can be as bad as farmers wiring sometimes.

 

[NozSpark]

The photocell is for the site lighting,,,, wowefully innadequate... The site is a single road with 11 units on each side, there are only 3 bollard lights on each side

So.e of the issues I've already found are

SWA not glanded at supply end (Main sub)

Switch fuse missing cover screws (only interlock holding door closed)

ELCB wired so that it can be turned off without operating shunt trip (surely there's a better way?) - it was actually turned off at the MCB and therefore the whole site lost its earth leakage protection.

Holes in top of enclosures

SWA not glanded at bollard lights, I.e. armour not earthed

Automatic gate wiring a total mess so much so that they have passed cables between the enclosure and lid so that you can't fit the lid any more

Photos of gate mess...

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd101/nozspark/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0747.jpg

 

[Rob_the_rich]

...

Could a barrier be installed in there? like a removeable panel with holes cut out, since it is within the enclosure it would need to be fire resistant.

So the answer to my question is no, since it would not comply with the product standard of the enclosure (Unless the manufacturer supplies internal partitions for this purpose). Note that when I posted, it was not clear what the cabinet was made of. Elsewhere on this forum I have read advice to fabricate cover plates etc out of metal or GRP. Oh well, I was just trying to think of an alternative to re-making the terminations, and didn't think that plywood, for example, would be a suitable material.

 

[NozSpark]

OK,,,, something else I've found...

The MCCB panel board has a 225A MCCB with shunt trip as a main switch and 2 x 125A MCCBs feeding a couple of sub mains...

The supply comes in through a 100A BS3036 switch fuse, 25mm SWA; and the MCCB settings are turned to the max....

Now I'm not really familiar with MCCBs, but even I can see that this is just plain wrong...

Oh,,, when testing the Earth Leakage relay,,, can I do that with a regular RCD tester set to delay? It's set to 1A 0.5s delay and I get >600ms on my meter,,, even when I reduce the delay

 

[ProDave]

Can your RCD tester go up to 1A? I'm pretty sure mine can't.

 

[steptoe]

I can do a 500mA X2 test on mine, try that, 

 

[NozSpark]

Yep....

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd101/nozspark/IMAG0762.jpg

It does trip when I test it,, I just get >600ms

 

[Sidewinder]

You will get a 500ms delay before the tester does anything, so it may well be that it will be over 600ms.

What tester Noz?

I'm guessing if it is capable of 1A then a Fluke 16xx?

If you are dealing with MCCB's with adjustments, then this is a little more complex than it first seems.

You can do this and we can guide you, but the client needs to understand how bad & dangerous their install is!

 

[NozSpark]

I have a Megger Paul,,, the 1502

I should finish on site tomorrow lunch time(ish) so any advice would be fantastic

I also really don't like the fact that the Earth Leakage Relay is rendered inoperable when it's MCB is turned off,,,, the shunt then can't trip the MCCB!

 

[Sidewinder]

Ring me when you are on site.

I am on site from early, it is a noisy site, but I should be able to take a call.

I am going to need to understand the issues and the requirements though.

ANYTHING you can send, pics info etc. up front will let me understand better what you need.

 

[NozSpark]

I'm on my way out now,,, I'll see what pics I've got later...

Basically it's a 3ph supply through a 100A 3036 switch fuse,, 25mm 4c SWA to a 250A MCCB with a shunt trip and set to the max both thermal and magnetic.. this supplies 2 x 125A MCCBs also set to the max which feed 2 x dbs with 40 MCBs for 11 park homes each

My main problem is the MCCBs and Earth Leakage relay Tbh,,, I know the rest.....

I think