Job Ive just viewed.

[gselectrical]

Evening all. Went to see a job earlier and would appreciate some advice regarding a few things. I mainly carry out domestic work now but my apprenticeship involved a lot of commercial/industrial work.

Anyway, the job involves replacing an old wylex 8-way board and an old Buss 3 phase board. These boards are located at an Annex to a large country hotel. They both feed different appartments of the Annex, fed via a sub main from a 3 phase switch fuse at the hotel.

The sub main enters the Annex and connects directly into a Buss 3 phase isolator. From there L1 is connected to the 8-way Wylex via a meter. Then L2 + L3 connect directly into the Buss 3 phase board (unmetered), L1 is also connected to the 3 phase board but via another meter.

Basically I would like to keep the Buss isolator, Install 2 single phase 8 way metal CU's (with RCBO's) to replace the current CU's. (Many circuits on the 3 phase board are now redundant) Each board on a different phase.

Does this sound ok?

I cannot establish exactly what cable is supplying the Buss isolator. It looks like a 16mm 4 core armoured with the armouring being used as an earth. However the cores are Red, Blue, White and black (neutral). I need to know whether this is suitible for the installation. 0.32 Ze measured at this isolator.

Sorry if this post is a bit long-winded, but could do with some advice regarding the sub main cable and my proposal.

Pics to follow.

Cheers. J

 

[gselectrical]

http://img94.imageshack.us/i/isolatorcu1cu2.jpg/

http://img149.imageshack.us/i/isolatorfeed.jpg/

http://img263.imageshack.us/i/cu13phase.jpg/

 

[kme]

OK.

1st thing - are you **certain** that there are no three phase loads off the board?

2nd - I wouldn`t be happy dropping the circuits across two phases - a new TPN board would be SO much better.

IMO

KME

n.b. If that IS a 16mm SWA, and the CPD on the other end is acceptable, then I see no reason not to use it; although I would suggest colour coding the ends to 7671.

 

[Evans Electric]

When you refer to the Buss isolator, is it not a Bill as in Bill Switchgear ?

The cable colours are just one of the older variants R W Bu Bk preceded RYB Bk , nothing wrong with it. The size is difficult to tell on a photo, it will be imperial , but looks more like 10mm equivalent than 16 TBH.

Deke

 

[gselectrical]

OK.1st thing - are you **certain** that there are no three phase loads off the board?

2nd - I wouldn`t be happy dropping the circuits across two phases - a new TPN board would be SO much better.

IMO

KME

n.b. If that IS a 16mm SWA, and the CPD on the other end is acceptable, then I see no reason not to use it; although I would suggest colour coding the ends to 7671.

Thanks for the quick reply KME.

Yes I am certain that there are no 3 phase loads running off the 3 phase board. I believe the reason it is there is because they had various laundrettes running off it years ago (which have now been disconnected) Half the ways are not even connected.

I have suggested a new TPN board. However the owner wants 2 boards with seperate metering. Are there any other options?

Cheers

 

[binky]

I take it there are no inspection certificates for the installation to give you some clues???

 

[gselectrical]

I take it there are no inspection certificates for the installation to give you some clues???

Nothing whatsoever. 1963 is the installation date on the switchgear. J

 

[wozz]

asbestos??????????????

 

[gselectrical]

more than likely. J

 

[kme]

Well, I`d certainly prefer three boards- unless the loads are so low as to negate the necessity; in which case a single phase dist may be of more use (double up on the SWA conductors?)

The other consideration is whether there is likely to be a requirement for TP / TPN at some point in the future?

KME

 

[loonytoon]

asbestos??????????????

I was just thinking that, that 3 phase board has asbestos flash pads behind fuses.

 

[Lurch]

I have suggested a new TPN board. However the owner wants 2 boards with seperate metering. Are there any other options?

TP+N board with metering kit. Fully flexible for every scenario then, either use 2 phases via 2 meters or use a 3 phase meter and fit it conventionally. Either way, TPN board with metering kit, the configuration could be decided at install time if it came to it.

 

[gselectrical]

Thanks Lurch. Could you recommend any?

Cheers. J

 

[Lurch]

Thanks Lurch. Could you recommend any?

All depends on your budget and what the local wholesaler does. Most of the TP boards I've fitted have been Hager or Merlin Gerin, both pretty good. The metering kit, either use the manufacturers one or just get the expansion box and then get your own DIN rail mounted meters, which is basically what the manufacturers metering kit is.

 

[kme]

The hager is a good unit - plenty of space, and neat looking board, too.

 

[netblindpaul]

Try Dorman Smith, UK and fitted on recently and it was a nice piece of kit to be fair.

Almost converted from MG & Hager.

 

[netblindpaul]

OK,

That switchgear is almost certainly MEM or Bill.

Red/White/Blue was no longer an accepted colour combination in the regs since the 13th as of 1st August 1964 when it was replaced by yellow.

So if the install was originally compliant the cable is coming up for 46 years old!

It will be imperial, so there will be no way to check the size short of removing a core, measuring the diameter of the strands and calculating the csa in imperial, unless you have sufficient experience of installations to recognise the cable size.

I'd go with 6-10mm rather than 16 from the pictures, but, this cable is before my time.

The lower fuse switch has an asbestos gasket it can be seen in the pictures.

The 3036 board will have asbestos arc shields I meet loads of them.

One can be seen in the middle row of fuse carriers, normally yellow at the end where the missing fuse is & the 2 missing fuses in the red rail at the top.

To remove the board complete is not notifiable under CAR2006, however it must be done in compliance with these regs.

Looking at pic263 my gut feeling is that the fuse switch is Bill.

The close up picture 149 shows white dust at the bottom of the fuse switch.

You should stop work now, seal the premises and notify the duty holder of the premises and HSE of possible asbestos contamination.

You should seek professional advice following this with regard to the situation and the removal of the possibly contaminated equipment.

CAR and its ACoP sates that in doubt, presume asbestos and work to that.

If you don't comply in full with the CAR reg's you need to understand that this is a criminal offence and you can go to jail.

Sorry to be such an ogre, but, HSE are now taking a dim view of such exposures.

At least you should get the dust sampled, or check out the HSE site/seek professional advice on removal of the switchgear and decontamination of the remaining area.

This could be very serious, as you have a statutory legal duty to report such incidents.

IF the dust were not present then you could argue that there was no deterioration.

HOWEVER, PLEASE be careful, asbestos is a killer, not now, not necessarily tomorrow, perhaps never, but you talk to someone who has been affected & you'll change your opinions.

Be careful out there peeps.

bad day explode :coat

 

[gselectrical]

Thanks for your reply. Appreciated

What would be the best way to approach this then?

What would others do???

Notify duty holder of this problem. Then would he get asbestos specialist in to remove the arc shields??

I havent started any work. Only viewed the job.

Nothing is ever f-ing straight forward. bad day explode

Cheers. J

 

[Lurch]

What would be the best way to approach this then?

Easiest thing to do would be get a specialist in to price for the removing of the kit. You just isolate then leave them to it. I have had similar issues myself in the past and have worked alongside the removal team, removing kit from walls as they are removing the wall panels etc...

What would others do???

Most other people would crowbar the kit off the wall and sling it in the nearest skip. Job done.

 

[wozz]

the company i used to work for would have us bar it off the wall put it in a bag and leave it at the yard. Thats if we could isolate the board without accessing other switchgear containing asbestos. But this was always a bit hit and miss as no one is that sure what switchgear contains it and whats had it removed. We sometimes had them remove the pads before we did anything but this was usually on jobs where the hse were already involved.

Im not sure i would have it tested, I thought all asbestos pads were 100% crystalite (white).