Moderator Rant? Or just drawing a line?

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Agree with Manator, ProDave.

I too have added a 'like' to your post. Not because of you admitting to pulling the fuse, but because of your carefully worded statement. :Applaud

I also agree with Sidey, as I too live in the WPD area (hardly supprising as I only live above 8 miles, if that, from him) and there are always two jointers etc, that come when a cut-out needs to be opened. :)

 
Thanks for the reply(s). In a previous section of my career, myself and my oppo were pulling up to a dozen of these a day in order to fit isolation switches in to street cabinets. Never had any problems at all, which is nice as we received no extra training in order to do the job.

However, if someone is daft enough to pull a fuse and then not reaslise that one of the terminals thats revealed is live, then they really shouldnt be doing electrical work in teh first place I guess. Which brings it neatly back to the beginning I know.......

 
I was kinda surprised at the vehemence of some of the posts in the recent thread on 'pulling main fuse'. I appreciate that the moderators have a legal position to take as they don't know who may read these posts and take it as accepted practice. I did feel that as a 'new member' some of the replies to my post were over the top. And no I am not an inexperienced spark, in fact I did my apprenticeship with the 'Board' a very very long time ago, but still learning!

Criminal damage is indeed a criminal offence not a civil one. H&S as a major authority often conduct their own prosecutions. They hire a lawyer [often a defence lawyer ironically] to conduct the prosection for them. Other authorities that conduct their own prosecutions are the water boards, for fishing licence offences. Level 5 and up to

 
Dunx,

Good post.

One error mate, the legal burden of proof in a prosecution by HSE is overturned, it is for the defendant to prove their innocence, it is one of the idiosyncrasies of the legal system, trust me on this one, because if I'm wrong then both IOSH & NEBOSH along with HSE are wrong too!

I don

 
I never said that there were not caveats, however, it does exist as per your post above, which is what I stated.

Also think about it when you are served an IN or a PN it is for you to prove to the HSE inspector that you have complied.

In my experience you will find it difficult for it to go any other way than for the "defendent" to have to prove that they have done all that is reasonably practicable.

HSE will quote the law & their ACoP's, followed by the cascading levels of quasi legal documents, of which 7671 is one of them.

 
I think some members find it hard to understand why we have to moderate some posts. We don't do it because it gives us something to do or to abuse our power. We give our spare time to protect you from spam and each other. We have to protect the forum's interests and that includes us taking a proportion of blame if we discuss an illegal act or host libellous or slanderous comments. As time goes on I think the moderators are becoming more aware of the position it puts the forum in even hosting such comments. The more we know the harsher we will be.

May I draw your attention to our Terms and Conditions of use:

In using the Forum you agree not to:use the Services to send junk email, spam, chain letters, pyramid schemes or any other unsolicited messages, commercial or otherwise;

post, publish, distribute or disseminate material or information that is defamatory, infringing, obscene, indecent, threatening, abusive, harassing, unlawful or deemed to be incorrect by Electrician Forum.
By registering on the Electrician Forum with a view to using the Forum you are fully accepting the terms, conditions and disclaimers contained in this notice. If you do not accept these Terms and Conditions you must immediately stop using the Forum. We have no obligation to monitor the Electrician Forum but reserve the right to edit or delete messages that we believe contravene these Terms & Conditions or are otherwise objectionable.Electrician Forum shall have the right (but not the obligation) in its sole discretion to delete, edit, lock, move or remove any content without notice that contains (in the opinion of Electrician Forum) unjustified, negative or derogatory comments about the forum or its members.
By using the forum you agree not to discuss illegal activities and furthermore you consent to us deleting, locking or editing your posts as we see fit. We don't want to do it, but we will when we think we need to. Myself I would always rather we removed or halted potentially harmful material before it becomes blatantly against the law.

We do our best for the forum. Read the T&Cs and abide by them. Then there is no need for any moderation.

I trust all members understand?

 
I disagree with that.

The T&C's say you can not use TEF to Publish, distribute or disseminate material or informaton that is unlawful.

That is not what you are discussing. The act is unlawful but its not unlawful to discuss it. An example of this breech would be to post kiddy pr0n which is illegal but discussing it would not be.

 
The T&C's say you can not use TEF to Publish, distribute or disseminate material or informaton that is unlawful.
Anything that we type is 'published' on the internet, and we are therefore disseminating unlawful information? I dunno Ian.

:coffee

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 15:25 ---------- Previous post was made at 15:23 ----------

You must agree that we should not play down the dangers so that any numpty thinks they can pull a main fuse? I'd hate it if one of my actions resulted in someone breaking the law and resulting in personal injury.

:|

 
The information is not unlawful but the act.

For example, talking about a murder thats in the news is not unlawful dispite the fact that murdering someone is.

You are getting confused between the unlawful act and a discussion around it.

 
I think............

I need more tommy sauce on me Bacon Sarnie!!!!!!!

But.. as well as that ..

Aren't we getting a bit muddled and tied in knots here..

We are not actually discussing whether we should be allowed to debate something..

We are discussing if the forum should be allowed to publish guidance telling someone else to do something we know is not an "Official" industry agreed practice?

This question normally arises because someone has asked a question and we are advising someone how to to something..

e.g.

Mr youngo inexperienced spark wants to change his CU tails and asks about if he can pull the fuse....

so most of the time we are actually answering someones question on advice as to how they should do somthing...

Not just debating and discussing the procedure.

NOW....

Would it be wrong advising someone to carry out a murder, or to deal in kiddy pawn, or tell them to pull the fuse?

Which is slightly different from just debating the pro's & con's of an action!

:| :C :coffee

 
There was actually an ad compain recently with regards to the internet.

Where as before, you couldn't get 'done' for anything you say or do, apparently now you can. You can no longer hide behind your screen.

I am talking about you as an individual here, not just a forum owner!

 
Just to add a further comment and thought on this topic.....

In practical terms the physical aspect of opening a cut out fuse is not that much more hazardous or dangerous than opening a large capacity switch fuse somewhere else within an installation..

(assuming suitable care and precautions are taken!)

e.g. unscrewing the cover off one of these while the incoming feed is still live..

Excel 80A Fused Double Pole Main Switch - QVS Electrical Supplies | Electrical Wholesaler

Or..

100A 440v TP&N (Triple Pole & Neutral) Switch Fuse - QVS Electrical Supplies | Electrical Wholesaler

Or..

Wylex 60A Insuated Switchfuse - S.P. - QVS Electrical Supplies | Electrical Wholesaler

etc.. etc.. etc..

BUT...

The key difference is who the specific item of switchgear or equipment belongs to...

And like it or not the incoming installation suppliers cut out does not belong to the customer or to you the electrician, and as a general rule we have not been given any permission to open these cut-outs. :(

It is a bit like me wanting to drive at 120mph.... On a public road I do not have permission.... :_|

On private land, where the road belongs to someone else, (e.g. Top Gear test track or similar..), ]:)

with suitable insurance and safety gear, it may be possible to get permission to drive at 120mph!! ;)

the question is not about what you are capable of doing safely..

Its what you have been given authority and permission to do!

Guinness

:|

 
I am usually the first to point out contentious things should not be suggested on open forums, but to suggest that publishing guidance on how to do something unlawful is in itself is unlawful is ludicrous.

If you were to build a bomb that would be unlawful. You could find many web sites on how to build a bomb but these are not unlawful.

Bottom line, the act may be unlawful but the publishing details on how to do it is not and would not be a breech of the unlawful part of the terms and conditions of this site, however, the muddy section that continues "deemed to be incorrect by Electrician Forum" that could be a different story. If "Electrician Forum" decides that the procedure of committing this unlawful act is in fact incorrect then that would be a breech, but that may need supporting by publication of the correct procedure.

 
As other members have pointed out in the above posts we are not discussing the should we or should we not part of pulling the fuse. What my post was about is the fact that you should not give any advise that is illegal and could be dangerous.

There is indeed a set procedure for pulling the main fuse. One thing you should all consider, under normal conditions the danger is limited to the actual carrier and condition, should a fault occur at the exact same time, the results could be very dangerous indeed.

 
Again, the advise is not illegal. Such advise that would be illegal could be insider trading but advising someone on a procedure or admitting following it itself is not illegal even if the acts are themselves illegal.

 
There is a law preventing you from giving advise that leads to a criminal act. You could also receive a higher sentance if proven guilty. Conspiring to commit an act almost always carries a higher penalty than the actual offence, or act. I for one would not like to leave myself open to prosecution because I advised any illegal activity.

 
I am usually the first to point out contentious things should not be suggested on open forums, but to suggest that publishing guidance on how to do something unlawful is in itself is unlawful is ludicrous. If you were to build a bomb that would be unlawful. You could find many web sites on how to build a bomb but these are not unlawful.

Bottom line, the act may be unlawful but the publishing details on how to do it is not and would not be a breech of the unlawful part of the terms and conditions of this site, however, the muddy section that continues "deemed to be incorrect by Electrician Forum" that could be a different story. If "Electrician Forum" decides that the procedure of committing this unlawful act is in fact incorrect then that would be a breech, but that may need supporting by publication of the correct procedure.
ianmacd,

Why does the forum need to support the opinion of its members by publication of the correct procedure, this should be taught on all electrical courses!

I am NOT going to advocate the "pulling" of the DNO fuse ever.

I would risk being "struck off" as would any other members who are professionally registered.

 
The correct procedure; Ian, has been posted on here numerous times already - Phone your DNO and ask them to come out and do it. Plain and simple!

 
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