Moving 11kv line to safe distance

[Kevinho]

Hi all,

I'm hoping someone here can help with some advice re an 11kv line and pole-mounted transformer that is close to my house and outbuildings. I have planning permission to rebuild the outbuildings, but there is a 11kv pole-mounted transformer less than 2 meters away. The outbuilding is >40 years old but I presume the transformer predates it. Clearly this is too close for the replacement building - but even if I was keeping the current building it would be unsafe to maintain/repair the roof as you could literally reach out and touch the 11kv input to the transformer while standing on the flat roof. Network operator is SSE and from all I've read online they seem to be the least cooperative of the companies - which now seems to be backed up with my experience of trying to communicate with them - i.e. no discussion, just an extortionate price for moving it by one pole. I particularly resent this as at >60 years old I'd say the transformer must be due for replacing at some point and also it is so overgrown due to poor SSE maintenance that I'm surprised it hasn't burnt down before now.

Question is: do I have any leverage with the argument that I can't safely maintain my property? Or can they refuse to discuss on the basis that they were there first? I'm not trying to dodge the entire cost (since there is something in it for me if I can replace the outbuilding) - I just want them to acknowledge some mutual benefit and shared costs.

Any thoughts and experience greatly appreciated. Also advice on which other professionals to get advice from (construction surveyors, independent network contracts?) would be great.

Cheers

Kev

 

[Andy™]

as with most DNO's, if you want it moved then expect to pay, its unlikely they would do it FOC. as youve already found out, expect a large quote for it

even at 60+ years, the transformer may still have life left, and if it aint broke, dont fix it

 

[ProDave]

Just ask them for a quote.

A friend of mine bought a building plot and had over 100 metres of the 10KV line undergrounded around the edge of his plot and one pole removed.  Mind it did cost him the thick end of £10K but your job is much more minor.

SSE are perfectly approachable. It's the distribution side of the business you need to contact, not the energy supplier retail side.

 

[Kevinho]

as with most DNO's, if you want it moved then expect to pay, its unlikely they would do it FOC. as youve already found out, expect a large quote for it

even at 60+ years, the transformer may still have life left, and if it aint broke, dont fix it

Thanks Andy. Yes, I expect to pay - but it is also true that I don't think it is safe where it is (I doubt any roofer will be prepared to work on the existing roof). They are not helping by failing to maintain the thing - can't believe it is OK to leave it so overgrown that you can't see the transformer - just some sizzled vines where they get close to the 11kv cables. They've also run the poles a dumb route over a tall hedge and trees - lines have come down a couple of times in the last 3 years (last time was in the recent snow) and the best solution all round would be to bury ~200 meters of it, which I'd be happy to contribute to cost of and dig trenching - but just can't get them to discuss (just goes back to cost of moving it 1 pole). I assume this is what happens when you have a single supplier in a position of strength :-(

 

[Doc Hudson]

I think you would need to start by checking back any historic reference documents regarding the land, its use and access to it, by all interested parties of the land. The fact there is a sub-station already there suggests some form of legal right of use and access already exists for your supply company. As a reference to the sort of principles involved a Western Power document giving information about landowners and customers access etc, is https://www.westernpower.co.uk/docs/connections/Landowner-Legal-Permissions-Leaflet_final_181014_F.aspx  Do you actually own the land, Do you have access to the deeds? these may give some clues?  http://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/internet/en/our-services/electricity-equipment-on-your-property/

Doc H.

 

[Kevinho]

Just ask them for a quote.

A friend of mine bought a building plot and had over 100 metres of the 10KV line undergrounded around the edge of his plot and one pole removed.  Mind it did cost him the thick end of £10K but your job is much more minor.

SSE are perfectly approachable. It's the distribution side of the business you need to contact, not the energy supplier retail side.

Thanks Dave. SSE quoted 25k to move it one pole up the hedge - which is still a dumb place to put it given that the hedge keeps bringing the lines down. I's also resent that they would probably use the opportunity to put up a new transformer at my cost

 

[Kevinho]

I think you would need to start by checking back any historic reference documents regarding the land, its use and access to it, by all interested parties of the land. The fact there is a sub-station already there suggests some form of legal right of use and access already exists for your supply company. As a reference to the sort of principles involved a Western Power document giving information about landowners and customers access etc, is https://www.westernpower.co.uk/docs/connections/Landowner-Legal-Permissions-Leaflet_final_181014_F.aspx  Do you actually own the land, Do you have access to the deeds? these may give some clues?  http://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/internet/en/our-services/electricity-equipment-on-your-property/

Doc H.

Hi Doc,

This is an interesting complication too. Seems they have been paying the wayleave to the farmer who owns the field next to the house. However when I look at the pole they all appear to be on the field side of the hedge/fence except the ones with the transformer on which are just my side of the hedge/fence. Once again though, they refuse to discuss and send out the wayleave officer to assess...but without access to my side of the hedge any assessment is guesswork or wrong.

 

[ProDave]

£25K sounds way too high. Can you do a drawing of what you want? How many houses does it feed? if several then there is a lot more work than you might expect.

Remember a lot of the work is "contestable" which basically means you can get others to quote for it or even do it yourself, things like digging trenches and laying ducts. The actual connections is about the only thing that is uncontestable and has to be done by in this case) SSE.

Get their surveyor on site and talk to him about what you want to achieve and see if he can suggest different alternatives.

This may be a lot more complicated than you think. There is a general rule that you can't build within 9 metres of an overhead 11KV line. But when you drill down to the details, you find the limit is actually 6 metres, but if building between 6 and 9 metres from the line you have to be aware of the hazards re scaffold, diggers etc and they may ask for a method statement or similar.  There is also a similar limit (though I forget the distance) for building close to underground lines.  Lets hope there are no underground lines from the transformer right where you want to build.

 

[Kevinho]

£25K sounds way too high. Can you do a drawing of what you want? How many houses does it feed? if several then there is a lot more work than you might expect.

Remember a lot of the work is "contestable" which basically means you can get others to quote for it or even do it yourself, things like digging trenches and laying ducts. The actual connections is about the only thing that is uncontestable and has to be done by in this case) SSE.

Get their surveyor on site and talk to him about what you want to achieve and see if he can suggest different alternatives.

basically 11kv comes down the lines that run along the hedge line to the transformer and then 240v drops down to the transformer to run underground to a pole at the roadside that then takes it down the street to ~20 houses. The proposed move would take the transformer up to the next 11kv pole and drop the 240v down there instead. I presume the work involved is:

• Shorten the 11kv lines back to previous pole
  
• Plant another pole (current transformer sits on two poles)
  
• Dig trench from that pole down to the original site
  
• run 240v cable down trench and connect to original 240v line
  

Distance for trenching is 35m. Cost assumes that I dig the trench for them.

For amusement - below is a game of spot-the-transformer

 

[ProDave]

Can you find it on Google Earth and grab an overhead satellite image to make it clearer? (edit out anything that would give away your location)

 

[Kevinho]

Can you find it on Google Earth and grab an overhead satellite image to make it clearer? (edit out anything that would give away your location)

Sure...image below. The 11kv comes down the hedge from the north (pole is just off top of picture) to the transformer which is casting a shadow over the flat roof. It then drops down to the ground as 240v line and runs south underground along the remainder of the hedge to the road at the bottom edge of the picture where it goes back up a pole to run west (and possibly east...there are also transformers at top and bottom of street - so I'm not sure where one swaps to the next) along the street. You can see how close the transformer is to the building

 

[Tony S]

Guidance on Overhead Line Clearances

 

[ProDave]

Guidance on Overhead Line Clearances

From that, table 3.6.2 shows a clearance of 4.3 metres to any part of a building.

 

[Sharpend]

Wasn't there something about a 5m distance in the regs or something ? 

 

[roys]

Very surprised SSE have let that much green stuff grow up and around the insulators and I presume knife edge isolators.  Thought that would be picked up a dealt with on the 5 yearly line walk.

My supply is with Scot Power and I must admit they are on the ball when it comes to keeping vegetation back from their lines.  Every 5 years they come onto my place and cut the trees back.

Good luck getting this resolved, you really have to try and get the SSE surveyor out and hope he is one of the common sense ones so that you can come to a mutually acceptable agreement. It is amazing how things can change when you get a face to face on site meeting then tea and biscuits.

 

[Sharpend]

Personally I'd say there is a breach of H&S with that setup, would a tree surgeon be looking for transformers if you employed one to clear he hedge/garden? 

 

[Andy™]

Personally I'd say there is a breach of H&S with that setup, would a tree surgeon be looking for transformers if you employed one to clear he hedge/garden? 

the 11kv overhead lines would be a give away that its not just a phone pole and to stay clear of it

 

[ProDave]

Sure...image below. The 11kv comes down the hedge from the north (pole is just off top of picture) to the transformer which is casting a shadow over the flat roof. It then drops down to the ground as 240v line and runs south underground along the remainder of the hedge to the road at the bottom edge of the picture where it goes back up a pole to run west (and possibly east...there are also transformers at top and bottom of street - so I'm not sure where one swaps to the next) along the street. You can see how close the transformer is to the building

View attachment 9017

SSE should include a network plan with their quote which would make it all clear what feeds what, and what alterations they propose.  If you have that network plan, post it here.

It does sound odd going underground for a bit then back to overhead. That was probably to avoid the main part of the house. The outbuilding was probably built later without regard to the overhead lines that were there and the clearances you were supposed to maintain.

Does your extension have to be where the old outbuildings are?  It may well be cheaper to leave the overhead lines alone, demolish the outbuildings and build the extension on the left (west) side of your plot. But you would have to go back through planning again.

 

[Murdoch]

I suspect it will come down to the fact that the OP wants to make changes and therefore he pays .....

 

[Tony S]

A bit off topic.

30+ years back I wanted a 10kVA 250V SP supply installed at a remote location. The then EMEB quoted £1k per pole (15 off) and £6k for the end pole and transformer, not forgetting the legal costs for wayleave agreements. Then the National Park stuck their oar in, it had to be underground. The NP put the final nail in the projects coffin lid, the costs just spiralled out of control.

I installed a 12kW Petter generator instead and that had to be hidden from the NP planners.

Anything that involves the DNO’s, start adding noughts to the final bill.