NAPIT the accusators

[phil d]

Well said .....

i would venture to suggest that vested interests drive regs changes, so the vested interests can sell more, expensive kit.

AFDD’s anyone?

That's exactly what I mean, now someone made a lot of money from RCD's, but we cannot argue with the fact that they save lives, and so that was a good thing, however AFDD's are an unknown quantity and I think more research needs to be done. I'll be doing some of my own shortly if I can get hold of one cheaply, because I've heard that they don't trip on all arcs, so they may trip when not needed and fail to trip when needed, apparently it all depends on the arc 'signature'.

Likewise why should we have to pay for a full book when it is amended, rather than pages that can be added like years ago, also what about if the amendment doesn't actually concern you? I remember one and they kept going on about how it was coming out and we all needed to be ready for it, when it did it was only a few pages about solar and EV charge points, neither of which I work on, so what good was it to me, as you say it's simply a case of generating income for someone.

 

[Jono Pashley]

can you translate that please?

Mike Andrews is the CEO of NAPIT today he will be at Elex as will Sidewinder, They know each other and the issue with the people "Premier" use to do their sales calls has been brought up before and they were told in no uncertain terms not to go off the script they were given and this certainly isn't it so words need to be had again.

 

[Andy™]

That's exactly what I mean, now someone made a lot of money from RCD's, but we cannot argue with the fact that they save lives, and so that was a good thing, however AFDD's are an unknown quantity and I think more research needs to be done. I'll be doing some of my own shortly if I can get hold of one cheaply, because I've heard that they don't trip on all arcs, so they may trip when not needed and fail to trip when needed, apparently it all depends on the arc 'signature'.

Likewise why should we have to pay for a full book when it is amended, rather than pages that can be added like years ago, also what about if the amendment doesn't actually concern you? I remember one and they kept going on about how it was coming out and we all needed to be ready for it, when it did it was only a few pages about solar and EV charge points, neither of which I work on, so what good was it to me, as you say it's simply a case of generating income for someone.

they dont work on rings. hager have admitted this. their excuse is its not a dangerous arc...

 

[Murdoch]

they don't work on rings. Hager have admitted this. their excuse is its not a dangerous arc...

Thanks for that .......... so most houses have RFC's ............ so they can't be used on these circuits .......... excellent information.

 

[Andy™]

Thanks for that .......... so most houses have RFC's ............ so they can't be used on these circuits .......... excellent information.

yep. great isnt it

Ring Final Circuits

Contrary to common belief, AFDD’s do offer protection against arc faults in ring final circuits and to the equipment being fed from this circuit. A series arc fault in one leg however, is unlikely to be at a dangerous level so will not be detected. This is due to current in this instance flowing around the other leg of the ring. A series arc fault will be detected in equipment and in flexible cables connected to the ring final circuit. Parallel arc faults are detected and disconnected in all parts of the ring circuit and on all connected equipment.

https://www.hager.co.uk/news-exhibitions-case-studies/18th-edition/arc-fault-detection-devices/89766.htm

 

[Murdoch]

Rings for all circuits from now on ?

 

[binky]

so AFDDs are really worth the money then  msl1:

 

[Jono Pashley]

https://www.hager.co.uk/news-exhibitions-case-studies/18th-edition/arc-fault-detection-devices/89766.htm

 

[OnOff]

Maybe a whole new class of costly fault protection devices incorporating Spread Spectrum TDR's to become mandatory in the 19th?

"What you need there is an SSTDR strapped to your ring madam!" 

 

[Andy™]

Maybe a whole new class of costly fault protection devices incorporating Spread Spectrum TDR's to become mandatory in the 19th?

"What you need there is an SSTDR strapped to your ring madam!" 

when i get round to it, i was actually going to get an AFDD and make a circuit with some faults, and see if a TDR will find them

 

[Evans Electric]

I heard on the grapevine  that the 19th edition is going back to BS3036 fusewire  .  

(  Why does the spell checker throw up ....rewirable  ...as spelt incorrectly ??    ) I always spell it like that .    The word is not in my OED   :C   

 

[OnOff]

I heard on the grapevine  that the 19th edition is going back to BS3036 fusewire  .  

(  Why does the spell checker throw up ....rewirable  ...as spelt incorrectly ??    ) I always spell it like that .    The word is not in my OED   :C   

American spellchecker spellcheck?

 

[OnOff]

when i get round to it, i was actually going to get an AFDD and make a circuit with some faults, and see if a TDR will find them

Makes some (more?) sense to detect / protect against an open ring circuit considering how some are loaded rather than waiting for the arc fault to happen. Let's milk AFDDs before that though!

 

[Evans Electric]

OK     Onoff,    but how do the Yanks spell  rewirable  then   .

I know that the Founding Fathers  sat down one day  to  make the English style spelling a bit simpler ,  hence Harbor  , Colour       ,Oops  , Color  etc 

 

[OnOff]

OK     Onoff,    but how do the Yanks spell  rewirable  then   .

I know that the Founding Fathers  sat down one day  to  make the English style spelling a bit simpler ,  hence Harbor  , Colour       ,Oops  , Color  etc 

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/224298/when-do-words-like-rewirable-keep-the-e-from-rewire

 

[kerching]

The yanks have to dumb down the English  language and have their own USA English.....thicker than porcine faeces the ones I have encountered

 

[phil d]

A lot of things now seem to have a hyphen where they never used to, maybe there's a European hyphen  mountain, or it could be down to the Brexit debacle    re-wire. lol

 

[OnOff]

I believe escaped hyphens are are big problem in the Everglades.

 

[phil d]

I believe escaped hyphens are are big problem in the Everglades.

Everglades, and alligators, that reminds me of a speech some years ago by a well known American president, pity I can't remember who it was, anyway, there were allegations of corruption being made this guy stands up at a press conference in the White House, and said."Gentlemen, there have been some pretty severe allegations made against me and I demand to know just who these alligators are"

It certainly made me laugh at the time, lol

 

[Sidewinder]

when i get round to it, i was actually going to get an AFDD and make a circuit with some faults, and see if a TDR will find them

Please do Andy, but I know John Ward (JW) has had one and tried it, it didn't go well.

However, the arc fault needs to carry 2 - 2.5A of current for it to be detected, that is going to be a difficult ask.

As far as ring circuits go, they don't detect ring circuit faults, but, they do detect faults in connected devices, which seems to be part of the intention.

Thus the whole reason for AFDD's seems to be that we will eventually have to fit them at the cost of the public, so that appliance manufacturers can continue to make and sell dangerous products, thus maximising their profits because they have cut costs, the AFDD makers get to make loads of profit from the sale of AFDD's, and the only loser, again, what a surprise is the public (& the public purse).

Manufacturing companies and the like will simply pass their costs on in the price of their product, ergo the public lose out.

The public sector will loose out because their budgets will be stretched further, ergo, public services suffer, and thus the public lose out.

The 3rd sector have little money anyway, so they lose even more, so they can't support their activities to help the public, thus, the public lose out again...

The winners are, the appliance manufacturers whose costs have gone up doe to AFDD's, but they have passed these on to the public in the form of higher pricing.

Also the AFDD makers, they have greater sales, and any costs that they incur due to AFDD implementation are simply passed on to the customer in higher pricing.

The only losers are the public.

Big business wins every time.