Opinions please

[Manator]

Applying codes on any inspection is always going to provide controversy. A few years ago I did an inspection when we all called them PIr's I found a damaged light switch in the basement. I down graded my code because the only user who had access was the only person who had the key, was aware of the danger and took precautions when he used the switch. There were no exposed live parts but any deterioration would prove to be dangerous.

I have also just carried out an inspection on a factory that has its own maintenance electrician, so you would assume that any codes I gave would reflect this? Not so, most of what he has done is a disgrace and I have pulled his work and repairs up to such an extent that I told him not to install anything in future. He could not see the problem with a double socket outlet being wired from a 63amp 3ph isolator, as he was only using one of the phases he thought it was OK.

 

[Murdoch]

Applying codes on any inspection is always going to provide controversy. A few years ago I did an inspection when we all called them PIr's I found a damaged light switch in the basement. I down graded my code because the only user who had access was the only person who had the key, was aware of the danger and took precautions when he used the switch. There were no exposed live parts but any deterioration would prove to be dangerous.

I have also just carried out an inspection on a factory that has its own maintenance electrician, so you would assume that any codes I gave would reflect this? Not so, most of what he has done is a disgrace and I have pulled his work and repairs up to such an extent that I told him not to install anything in future. He could not see the problem with a double socket outlet being wired from a 63amp 3ph isolator, as he was only using one of the phases he thought it was OK.

I have to disagree with you. C2 for me - you can't guarantee the person with the key won't change.

 

[Manator]

I have to disagree with you. C2 for me - you can't guarantee the person with the key won't change.

There lies the controversy I alluded to. :slap

 

[Murdoch]

There lies the controversy I alluded to. :slap

No controversy for me.

Broken accessory = C2

Its not exactly a difficult, expensive fix and it "could" present a danger

 

[Manator]

No controversy for me.

Broken accessory = C2

Its not exactly a difficult, expensive fix and it "could" present a danger

Therein lies the major problem with differing views on how to interpret and apply the rules.

First of all the wiring regulations are nothing more than a guidance, as is the on site guides and although they could prove that you have followed the regulations in order to comply they do not constitute the be all and end all.

The example I gave above was the only problem I found on an installation that was otherwise fine and showing no faults. The occupier was a business owner and self employed with one staff who ran the office. The basement was used for storage and was always locked. The owner was an electrical engineer and designed motor controls and plc drives, he also had what was then the 16th edition qualification. In my opinion a skilled person who was not only aware of the potential danger but who by deduction of a risk assessment had taken precautions when using the switch.

My risk assessment concluded that even though a potential danger did exist that danger was controlled and under the control of a skilled person.

In such an example I could not issue an unsatisfactory certificate based on the risk assessment carried out. Part of that risk assessment was the likelihood of that switch being changed, I was confident that it would.

I never base my results on what the best practice guide says should be done, but rather assess each and every one on merit. Every NICEIC assessment that has raised such questions have been duly satisfied with my reasoning. Even when I have raised a C3 to a C2 my reasoning for that result has been satisfactory to the inspecting engineer.

 

[Davethsparky]

I agree with Binky... and more to the point the ESC best practice guide No.4 even states that a badly damaged accessory is a C1 so IMHO a less damaged one has to be a C2

yes but then the certsure empire does like to like to make up their own rules and regulations to suit themselves don't they. (The ESC being well and truly in the control of certsure)

 

[Essex1]

DB with missing blanks in a unlocked cupboard which anyone can access - C1. 

DB with blanks missing in a locked cupboard with controlled access - C2. 

 

[M107]

In consequent updates a statement has been included in the regulations from the Health and Safety Executive, which states that previous installations, whilst not meeting current standards are not deemed unsafe.

I wish one of my customers insurance companies had seen this statement from HSE..............they are still insisting that any codes, including C3's are rectified before they will renew insurance on a 400 year old cottage  I only picked it up on 4 C3's.

 

[M107]

DB with missing blanks in a unlocked cupboard which anyone can access - C1. 

DB with blanks missing in a locked cupboard with controlled access - C2. 

I would C1 in both instances, you can not guarantee controlled access to a room.

Case in example a circuit was locked off at a DB room was "authorised persons only"  with swipe access........somebody knew how to gain access to the room by other means than the swipe card system, result circuit was made live to get a TV working & not re-isolated & was found live next working day.

Determined individuals will always find a way. 

 

[Davethsparky]

I wish one of my customers insurance companies had seen this statement from HSE..............they are still insisting that any codes, including C3's are rectified before they will renew insurance on a 400 year old cottage  I only picked it up on 4 C3's.

It makes no difference at all to the domestic installations as the EAWR (which the HSE note is about) doesn't apply to a domestic installation 

 

[bluetobits]

I would C1 in both instances, you can not guarantee controlled access to a room.

Case in example a circuit was locked off at a DB room was "authorised persons only"  with swipe access........somebody knew how to gain access to the room by other means than the swipe card system, result circuit was made live to get a TV working & not re-isolated & was found live next working day.

Determined individuals will always find a way. 

But Jeremy Kyle was on, can't miss that!  :coat

 

[binky]

I wish one of my customers insurance companies had seen this statement from HSE..............they are still insisting that any codes, including C3's are rectified before they will renew insurance on a 400 year old cottage  I only picked it up on 4 C3's.

Get a lot of this from insurance companies, they just don't accept any codes as being acceptable, which is ruddy annoying when trying to explain what C3 means to some young lass on the phone who doesn't understand anything..... :shakehead