parking charge notice

[steptoe]

as the title,

are these things actually enforceable?

I have no intention of paying it at this stage as  -

I was actually there on legitimate business

and

I was told I didnt need a permit, in fact the receptionist told me which bay to park in relevant to the firm I was visiting ( it was one of those serviced offices type of places)

minus bits : the company I was collecting stuff from,  I had just walked on a company they do a lot of business with (due to non payment of invoices) , so they are very unlikely to help me out on this

 

[Blue Duck]

Private company? 

Not a penalty charge notice issued by the tango'd council? 

Don't pay. 

 

[ProDave]

I would just forward it to the company you were visiting that said you could park there.

 

[Evans Electric]

I think you need to be careful here Stepps .  This was on the radio ,  yes they can't fine you  , they send an invoice but its tied up lagally with the notices posted at the scene .....if you park here you are agreeing to our terms and conditions .   That sort of thing . 

We had one at ASDA  because Missus Deke forgot to place her Blue Badge on the dash  and I think ...legally... we had to pay except  on appeal ,they accepted it was a genuine mistake and waived it .    I'm sure its about £90 there.

 

[steptoe]

just downloaded this from MSE website

IMPORTANT!
PLEASE READ THEN DELETE THIS BOX

This is a template letter for guidance. You need to add your details and where appropriate change the letter to suit your circumstances. Feel free to add more info.

Once you’ve made changes, always print it out and read through to check it makes sense to the recipient.
 

ACTION POINTS

[BLUE BRACKETS]: Put your specific info here, then delete the instructions (and change the text colour)

[RED BRACKETS]: Just for info, after you’ve read delete
 

[insert your name

and address]

[insert date]

[insert name and address of

landowner or agent of landowner]

Dear Sir or Madam,

Ticket number: [insert ticket number]

Vehicle registration number: [insert vehicle registration number]

You issued me with a parking ticket on [insert date] but I believe it was [select from unfairly / unlawfully / illegally] issued. [if asked] I decline your invitation to name the driver, which is not required of me as the keeper of the vehicle. I will not be paying your demand for payment for the following [select from reason / reasons]:

[Important: fill in the sections below and delete any bullets that don’t apply]

The alleged contravention did not occur

Quite simply, the parking attendant got it wrong and the vehicle was not parked inappropriately at the time the ticket was issued. This is due to the fact [insert reason here]. Please see attached evidence, [explain your evidence here & include and refer to documentary evidence if you have any], as proof of my claim.

There was insufficient signage

The car park in question has no clear signage to explain what the relevant parking restrictions are. This means no contract can be formed with the landowner and all tickets are issued illegally. Please see attached evidence, [explain your evidence here & include and refer to documentary evidence if you have any], I have gathered as proof.

The vehicle was not parked on the land in question

You issued a ticket for supposedly breaking your parking restrictions yet the vehicle was actually parked [insert where you parked] meaning you had no authority to issue a ticket. Please see attached evidence, [explain your evidence here & include and refer to documentary evidence if you have any], as proof.

Mitigating circumstances

There are mitigating circumstances to explain why the vehicle was parked where it was and the charge be waived for this reason. Please see attached evidence, [explain your evidence here & include and refer to documentary evidence if you have any], as proof of claim.
 

The charge is disproportionate and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
The amount you have charged is not based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner.

In my case, the [insert figure] charge you are asking for far exceeds the cost to the landowner of [insert details of the parking costs eg if the fee is £100 but I only overstayed 15 minutes]. I therefore feel the amount you are asking for is excessive.

[If appealing against a notice to keeper] The notice to keeper is incorrect
The Notice to Keeper failed to meet the obligations of Schedule 4 of the POFA Act 2012. [eg if the Notice to Keeper arrived late (after 15 days following the alleged parking office, or after 56 days following the issue of a parking charge notice on your windscreen].

[Enter any further reasons of your own to support your claim and include as much detail as you can].

If you choose to pursue me please be aware that I will not enter into any correspondence and this will be the only letter you will receive from me until you answer the specific points raised in my letter.

Yours faithfully,

the part

appealing against a notice to keeper is of interest,

the 'offence' happened on 24-5 and the 'date of sending' is 9th June, thats 16 days the way I count,,,,,,,

 

[Andy™]

ignoring them could be bad, the law changed a few years ago. but you do have a good chance of getting out of it, and possibly a nice little claim for breach of data protection act against them...

have a look at here http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=60

 

[Sidewinder]

Forget about the company you dumped, just tell the PCN issuer that it is down to that company because you were attending their site on business, at the "specific" time & date you were there, and were informed that you were to park where you did after enquiring, specifically to avoid such PCN and you complied with the requirements, thus your vehicle was not parked in contravention of the requirements.

.

They cannot "fine" you as a "fine" is punishment, and punishment if reserved for the "State".

They can however, if legitimate, charge you an over stay fee, or an inappropriate parking fee.

This you can dispute, and it is not a criminal matter, it is a civil matter, and, as you were acting as instructed to avoid such a charge then I fail to see how they can legally charge you.

 

[Blue Duck]

Just copied this from another forum I frequent.

Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. *******

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on these main grounds:

a). The sum does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term. It is a disguised penalty and not commercially justified.
. As keeper I believe the signs were not seen, the wording ambiguous and the primary purpose of your business model is intended to be a deterrent.
c). There is no evidence that you have any proprietary interest in the land.
d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with POFA 2012 and breaches various consumer contract/unfair terms Regulations.
e). There was no consideration, nor any acceptance, flowing from both parties and any contract with myself, or the driver, is denied.

The purpose of this communication is:

1. Formal challenge
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. As such, you must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge. I suggest you accept this challenge now or alternatively, send a rejection letter - subject to accepting my claim for costs as clearly stated below, since you have no case. 

2. ''Drop hands'' offer
The extravagant 'parking charge' is baseless but I realise that you may have incurred postage costs. Equally, I have incurred costs to date, for researching the law and responding to your communication. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, do not exceed £15. Therefore, this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days without further expense and I will not pursue you for my costs. If you persist then I will charge in full for my time at £18 per hour plus my out-of-pocket expenses and damages for harassment. 

3. Notice of cancellation of contract
I hereby give notice that this alleged 'contract' was never properly offered by you. It is hereby cancelled and any obligations now end. If you offer - and if I decide to use - IAS or POPLA, then the ‘contract’ ends immediately on the date of their decision (whatever the outcome) so my notice of cancellation still applies. The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation & Additional Payments) Regulations apply. It is the will of Parliament that express consent is obtained for consumer contracts - not implied consent - and that information is provided in a durable medium in advance. 

You have failed to meet these requirements. The foisting of unexpected contracts like this on consumers, by stealth, is a thing of the past.

By replying to the challenge you acknowledge receipt and acceptance of points 2 and 3 above. If you decide to persist with this unwarranted threat, I will be put to unnecessary expense and time in appealing or defending this matter. You will then be liable for my costs. My pre-estimate is that these will be likely to exceed £100.

I retain proof of submission of this challenge. I expect your considered reply within 35 days.
 

Not 100% sure if the rules have changed ?  This was from Apr16

 

[Murdoch]

Did the company you visited have a visitors book? Did you sign in and state your reg number?

 

[phil d]

Ignore it, there was something recently on tv and it stated that the minute you start communicating with them then you are effectively entering into a contract with them, no communication equals no contract apparently.

 

[steptoe]

Ignore it, there was something recently on tv and it stated that the minute you start communicating with them then you are effectively entering into a contract with them, no communication equals no contract apparently.

The Martin Lewis website says to reply, but neither admit or deny being the driver.

I think I'm going to use his template with the 15 day clause , along with sidewinders point that the driver was instructed on where to park and at no time was told they needed a permit.

May cherrypick some of Mr Ducks suggestion too.

Did the company you visited have a visitors book? Did you sign in and state your reg number?

Unfortunately not, tbh, as I found out, both them, and the company I was working for are Mickey mouse outfits giving the impression they are actually much larger firms, hence the serviced offices, which only had a desk, chair, and a load of boxes of stuff, may as well have been working out of the spare bedroom.

 

[Andy™]

Ignore it, there was something recently on tv and it stated that the minute you start communicating with them then you are effectively entering into a contract with them, no communication equals no contract apparently.

ignore and you could easily end up at small claims court and if you dont defend it you will end up with a CCJ

best option would be as i said in post 6, go there and get better advice from people who know what they are doing

 

[steptoe]

ignore and you could easily end up at small claims court and if you dont defend it you will end up with a CCJ

best option would be as i said in post 6, go there and get better advice from people who know what they are doing

Yes, been reading through that last night, seems a lot of fairly clever people with a good bit of experience between them.

 

[phil d]

ignore and you could easily end up at small claims court and if you dont defend it you will end up with a CCJ

best option would be as i said in post 6, go there and get better advice from people who know what they are doing

I think the gist of it was that for what it costs, they won't actually take it to court, these people are interested in making money, not losing it.

apparently most people will just pay up, so the odd one who doesn't they just walk away from.

A lot of these parking enforcement people are not all that bright, there was one recently who was contracted by a council to patrol the streets, he noticed the local hospital had double yellows and went on there issuing tickets, only to find out later that he was on private land and couldn't actually issue them.

 

[Blue Duck]

Just drove away from a PCSO issuing me a ticket for parking in a red route.

I think he only got a picture of the front of my van. :slap

I was in no way causing an obstruction and was only stopped for 30 seconds. But meh, I will probably end up paying it! 

 

[Sharpend]

Not if you tell them you had to pull over on the grounds of health and safety, prevention of causing an accident.  :B

 

[phil d]

Not if you tell them you had to pull over on the grounds of health and safety, prevention of causing an accident.  :B

He had a wasp in the cab! Seriously I was told that one by a traffic cop mate of mine, if you are on a motorway it's perfectly acceptable to pull over onto the hard shoulder to remove a wasp. So he had a wasp in the cab and had no option other than to stop to prevent a possible accident.

 

[binky]

@steptoe these things can be enforced if it can be shown you have deliberately avoided payment or constantly broken some parking restriction. The parking companies recently won a case against a woman in Wales who kept parking in a residents area visiting her grandad of somthing like that. Her mates had told her these could not be enforced, so she had ignored all the warning letters and kept thinking they couldn't touch her. Bit different to an individual offence. I would run with one of the template letters, it seems to be good enough to get rid of said thieves. It is worth checking out exactly which company it is you are dealing with, some definetly never go to court, others may do.

I am currently totally ignoring a rediculous claim for money after overstaying by about 10mins the time I paid for parking. How they can work this out I have no idea, as the ticket machine did not require reg of vehicle, and plenty of other people where purchasing tickets at the same time. I'm on threatening letter no8. - I think they are trying to wear me down :slap . They wouldn't stand a chance anyway, the vehicle is registered to the business, they've spelt the company name wrong, and the buisness is no longer registered at the address on the VO5.

 

[Andy™]

and the buisness is no longer registered at the address on the VO5.

that can get nasty if you dont get the letters that are sent to the address on the log book, many people only find they had a problem once they find out they have a CCJ later on because they didnt get the letters so were all ignored, and small claims is won by default if you ignore...

 

[binky]

I get the letters, it's still my home address, but if trying to persue a company, it's not exactly hard to find on t'internet, so they should really do a bit of research. I checked out the company concerned, we can expect around 10 letters before they drop it. I was also talking to the parking warden of a large multi-storey car park next to where I was working afew weeks ago (former council car-park handed over to private parking company). Parking was a bit awkward for the job, warden said you can park in here ' got no money says', 'they never do anything' was the response. I was a bit shocked at that.