please read this, your opinions are needed.

[NozSpark]

I looked a a very large property a couple of years ago where the insurance company required a satisfactory PIR to be carried out as a condition of renewal of the policy...

I had a brief look, to determine what fed what (took 2 of us a week!) and found that the place really would have benefited from a rewire,,, cost £10 or £15k

Guess what?? ...... He changed insurance companies

 

[elvis]

Not surprised to hear that one.

I went to look at a potential rewire a few years ago, gave them an estimate and I know they wanted to me to do the job. A week of wrangling with the price and I told them my price was my price. They went with the cheaper guy (by no more than a few hundred pounds) who was also registered with one of the membership bodies as stipulated by their mortgage provider... new one on me.

I got a call about a year later from 'a guy' telling me they had had some re-modelling done in the house, kitchen extension etc. and that the guy who had done the electrical work for this had raised some questions about the recent rewiring of the house. I got the address, same guy, a bit shame faced.

Can I just point out before I go any further that I am not one of these guys who just slags off every tradesman's work who's been in a property before me.

The spark had wired all of the lights with 1.0mm, brown/brown twin and earth. In the attic were wee connector block joints on the cable one for about every group of two/or three lights, a mass of un-sleeved browns and earths. Now, he had rewired the place and it tested OK but the workmanship was shocking and potentially dangerous and made any future fault finding a nightmare. Incomplete, factually incorrect certificate, left the job while he was still owed money and ignored calls about problems.

I tidied it up as best I could, advised them to get in touch with the membership body. Several calls over a couple of months and they eventually gave up without one call returned.

I couldn't figure out why he had arranged the circuits the way he did but my best theory is he had the cable lying around in the van and if he wired it in short lengths he could lay the cable out flat and figure out what core was what without belling anything out.

These are the guys who give the rest of us a bad name in the minds of some consumers and he is off, with his dosh... scot-free.

 

[elvis]

From Gas Safe's website:

By law, you must be on the Gas Safe Register to carry out gas work in United Kingdom, Isle of Man and Guernsey.

And...

An example of the unenforced, wooly crap you get from the people who look after our trade:

http://www.harlandvoss.com/electricity.htm

There are a limited amount of gas pipes in any premises, gas tends to 'go off' a bit more dramatically and a bit more obviously then electricity.

Electrical systems are more complex and therefore potentially more expensive. Should this be an excuse for not monitoring the work that we do?

Are badly installed electrical systems as dangerous as badly installed gas systems?

Should there be an organisation who can say the same thing about the Electrical Installation Industry that Gas Safe can say about theirs?

I am looking for the stats!

 

[elvis]

Some interesting reading, both from 2007.

Gas (table 3):

http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/planningandbuilding/pdf/1324663

Electricity (Items 3 & 4):

http://www.esc.org.uk/industry/policies-and-research/statistics/

Gas: in the law.

Electricity: not in the law

 

[Sidewinder]

Elvis,

Not strictly a correct quote.

Anyone can do their own gas work, they just must be competent to do so.

To do gas work as part of an enterprise then you MUST be gas safe registered.

 

[elvis]

I thought we were discussing doing electrical work as part of an enterprise.

if we are gonna get pedantic about it, anyone can do anything to their own home Sidewinder.

I think the point I am trying to make is pretty clear.

 

[kme]

There is, about once a year, a resurgence of the "gas regs versus electrical regs" discussion.

Simple fact of the matter is this:

If gas goes bang, it`s likely to do serious physical and/or structural damage.

If leccy goes bang (usually) no more than one person gets a shock, which may or may not be fatal.

Its like saying drivers should have the same level of instruction & testing as airline pilots........

Same argument stands with regard to restricting the sale of electrical goods - it would be against the law to do so!

1. There`s no saying that the purchaser is ( or intends to be) the installer.

2. Human rights and freedoms would be invoked if a company tried to restrict sale of cable or fittings.

3. There ARE perfectly competent sparx out there, who are NOT registered with a scam provider, as they don`t need the "part p" requirement, and don`t have clients requiring NIC etc. Why should they be penalised?

The scams are, effectively, a tax on sparkies, and a quasi-legal "stamp of approval" of their members - albeit utterly worthless.

As long as the money-hungry "how can we screw `em out of more" make the rules.......

Whilst the Judiciary squabble over the idea that our regulations don`t mean diddly-squat in a court of law,

And even the IET now have a standard to say that they can`t issue guidance on interpretation........

Like it or not guys - we`re on our own out there. The scam provider won`t help you (it isn`t financially viable), the IET won`t confirm or deny your existence, and the court doesn`t care if you complied with 7671, "cos its only guidance"!

The only light you might have is EAWR - though I don`t know when that was last used a s a successful defence - maybe others will????

( this obviously precludes those working to PUWER, or other statute standards - I`m aiming this purely at electricians)

Its a sad state of affairs, and will probably get a whole lot worse before (if) it improves.

My opinion, for what its worth.

KME

 

[Hardy Sparky (Mvc)]

I have been selected to take part in an online forum by the IET about the state of the industry. If you have anything you wish to raise then please detail them in BULLET FORM. I will then raise these in the forum on Wednesday evening.

Please no long narrative rants, just succinct bullet points.

Thanks, and lets hope this can change things!

sparkys and consumers need more help to why regs are there! It needs pushing out harder why people should use a qualified  regestered electrician and not just go for a cheap job 

 

[Blue Duck]

Does the IET think scheme operators have done enough mainstream advertising of part P to the general public.

As per ProDave on the isolators.

Not only Part pee but other information about electrical safety, current regs & equipment should be more accessible to the public (£350 CU replacement thread) Lets get Linda Barker out of retirement!

Also agreed with not allowing the general public to buy anything other than switches and sockets! - Meter tails in wickes ffs!!!!!

As for isolators some training in not over-tightening terminals wouldn't go a miss.

Note to self.. don't press view new content and expect the content to be new!!!!!

 

[Technician]

Some training organisations take all comers and promise to turn

them into electricians and engineers.  Others insist upon grades

1 to 3 at GCSE in the relevant subjects.  (or is it A to C?).

Either way, the raw material for industrial activity in general and

the electrical industry in particular is lamentably bad and schools

need to get their act together.  While I appreciate that this is not

a general picture of the national output from schools, there seems

to be a commonly held perception that apprenticeships are a second

best compared to a degree.  This, also, needs to change.

I also think, and I have heard it on the radio, that the government of

the day is not always necessarily best placed to decide where funding

is directed when training in such a skill area as this is considered.

For as long as government money is directed at the age group 16 to

18, we will be depriving others who may be older of the chance to make

a life-changing decision that might lead to a more satisfactory work

activity.

I know we need a high level of skill within this industry and younger

lads I have met who have been trained have told me of the short cuts

made by their mentors who should know better.

I also know of one or two colleges who make such statements as "there

is no need for a protective conductor in steel conduit because the

steel conduit is always suitable for this purpose."

I realise that the last paragraph may give rise to another thread but

this is just one of the things I have heard.

 

[Doc Hudson]

This is an old thread from June 12, which reached a natural conclusion at post#36. So before it drifts off into potentially numerous valid tangential sub-topics, which will be difficult for others to start following the original context of, I think it best if we close this here. Any related issues are probably best started in new easier to read threads.. 

Doc H.

From post#36

Some good discussion here and sorry for the late update, but the whole exercise was pointless and I was a bit led up the garden path. Basically, there was NO opportunity to raise any of the excellent points you all made. The format went along the lines of a question was asked by an unrelated, non-electrically experienced market researcher and we had to respond. It very quickly led onto the real reason for the survey, which was to gauge the response to enrolling onto an accreditation scheme called ENGTECH run by the IET (for a fee of course).

And i still to date haven't been paid the £50 they promised.

total waste of time, sorry guys.