Private Landlord - Electrical Installation Condition Report

[CinnamonDonkey]

Hi,

(My appologies if I have posted this to the wrong forum)

I am a private landlord with a single property. Due to the Bristol County Council Selective Licensing scheme I have been forced to have an Electrical Installation Condition report done (must be free of C1 and C2).

I've just received the report and I am somewhat supprised by some of the things I have been failed on, whilst I have no C1 issues, they have listed plenty of C2's and F/I (further investigation required).

Some examples:

- Main RCD is rated at only 30AMPs (C2)
1. I lived in the house for 15 years and it only triggered twice maybe under genuine fault conditions.
2. How can an under rated RCD be a problem (surely it is better to rate for too low than too high a current)?

- Dishwasher and Washing machine plugged into extension lead (C2)
1. This is something my tenant had done - fused spurs are provided (only occured since last inspection).
2. Both these appliences belong to the tenant.
3. The tenant told me that she asked them during the inspection as to if it was a problem and they told her no, just don't use them both at the same time.

- Unused spur in kitchen (F/I)
1. See above.

- No internal water stop cock with earth bonding (C2, F/I)
1. The property pre-dates 1930, but has gone through many face lifts and mondernisation including re-wiring around 15 years ago.
2. The stop cock is external to the property and runs in under the house (Like I say, I lived there for 15 years i know it inside out).
3. All pipe work is bondend and labled in multiple places including gas pipes.

- Bedroom light shade missing (C2)
1. It was there but the tenant broke it.
2. It's a god-damn-light shade!

- Unknow bathroom light IP rating (F/I)
1. It was bought as a bathroom light. It's been there for years, no problems... no-one is going to be touching it.


The list goes on and on... some things are fair but seriously a missing light shade is a C2? What come back do I have how can I verify his results?

Very unhappy. Any advice is welcomed.

 

[Lurch]

I have been forced to have an Electrical Installation Condition report done (must be free of C1 and C2).

Good. More councils should do this for all landlords.

1. I lived in the house for 15 years and it only triggered twice maybe under genuine fault conditions.

Completely irrelevant.

2. How can an under rated RCD be a problem (surely it is better to rate for too low than too high a current)?

If it really is a 30 AMP RCD then no, making the current too low means it is underspecified for the assumed max demand/fault currents etc. IT is unlikely that a 30A RCD would be suitable on most domestic properties, unless there was some fusing down involved of the main cutout fuse size.

- Dishwasher and Washing machine plugged into extension lead (C2)

Regardless of what or why this has no business being on the EICR. The EICR covers fixed wiring, and if points are provided for both appliances then these should be used and extension lead removed from service. Simple to rectify regardless of whether it should be there or not anyway.

1. See above.

??? Unused, or function unknown? If it operates sockets below the worktop then this again is easily rectified even though it isn't coded.

- No internal water stop cock with earth bonding (C2, F/I)

The presence of a stop cock doesn't really matter, it is just whether or not it is bonded where the service enters the property, if the service needs bonding. Perhaps the electrician couldn't find the water service entry point? If so, point him towards it and you should be able to sort this reasonably easily.

- Bedroom light shade missing (C2)

Assuming this is a standard pendant set, this shouldn't be on the report. If the fitting is a complete base/shade type assembly then it needs all relevant parts and covers fitting to be serviceable.

- Unknow bathroom light IP rating (F/I)
1. It was bought as a bathroom light. It's been there for years, no problems... no-one is going to be touching it.

At the end of the day it's his name on the certificate, if it can;t be verified to be suitable then he can't really sign it off saying "it's OK, CinnamonDonkey said so". The fact it was brought into question means it must have been within a zone that requires additional protection so again some clarification is probably needed here as it may or may not be relevant, and either way remedying the issue is a simple case of sticking a new fitting up with the correct IP rating.

 

[binky]

concurr with Lurch, sounds like the 'inspector' is being over-zealous.

30A RCD - sure this isn't 30mA ? If you look at the RCDt should have 2 markings, and Ampage rating like 63A or 80A (or possibly 30A) and another marking in often, harder to read smaller writing like 30mA which is the earth leakage rating. See below

https://goo.gl/images/wIBPAB

 

[CinnamonDonkey]

Thank you for the responses guys, very much appreciated.

@Lurch, I have no problem at all with needing a report or with rectifying guenuinly dangerous issues. I have problems with:

- The same restriction not being applied to all landlords. Being singled out means I am disadvantaged (time consuming having to do landlord courses, higher running costs aquiring all the additional certification, can't sell the property on with the tenant in place as other landlords don't want to be in a licensed zone).

How would you feel if a new rule was created for electricians requiring additional certification, more training courses and a council license for £500+ but was only applied to electricians in your post code?

- I don't like being put in a position where people can take advantage of the situation at my cost. Particuarly as my profit on this property was only £40 a month before the council got involved - as it stands I may have to move the tenant out of what is a pefectly good home and sell up because I can't keep going on like this (I'm only a landlord our of circumstance).


Based on what is in this report, this guy could walk into any house in the street and fail it. The guy knows I live over 200miles away. He knows that he will be the one doing the work. I have to know what is a valid issue and what is not and how I can protect myself from being taken for a ride.

There are things on the report that I completely agree with and have no problem with.


> RE: RCD 30amp.

His words exactly: "Main RCD only rated at 30amps for whole installation.", seemed strange to me also. I'll get the tenant to take a photo.


> water service entry point.

All I can say is that the water comes in under ground with the stop cock being external to the property. Where it goes is near impossible to identify without starting to lift flooring and removing units.

Regardless, all pipes on the combi boiler gas and water are bonded and labelled. The gas supply at the meter is bonded and labelled and the water pipes in the kitchen are bonded and labelled. Since all pipe work is copper and there is no plastic piping it effectively forms a circuit without any interuptions.


> Bedroom light shade missing

The light unit is a fan/light combo. I don't see how putting 1 missing shade on it make a differerence? The whole thing is made of metal. So long as it is correctly wired and earthed having the missing shade on it will make no differemnce. I don't understand how this ranks as a C2. A C3 I would understand.


Just some background on myself. I'm not a practicing electrician, and I am certainly not current on the IEEE Regs. But I do have a BTEC in Electrical and Electronic Engineering and a Degree in Electronic Engineering (IEEE Regs were 12 back then IRC). So I have some appreciation for the effort it takes to become an electrician and some understanding of what is going on and the requirements all be it 20 years out-of-date , hence the need for clarity from guys like yourself. 

Thank you!



 

 

[Lurch]

I have no problem at all with needing a report or with rectifying guenuinly dangerous issues. I have problems with:

- The same restriction not being applied to all landlords.

That was pretty much my point really, I didn't mean "good, you have been singled out" I meant "good, a council that actively pushes for certificates for electrical", but yes not doing it to all landlords is a bit pointless/stupid.

His words exactly: "Main RCD only rated at 30amps for whole installation.", seemed strange to me also. I'll get the tenant to take a photo.

Yep, would be best I think. If that is actually what he said and there is only a 30A RCD (which I do doubt TBH) then it would need some attention.

All I can say is that the water comes in under ground with the stop cock being external to the property. Where it goes is near impossible to identify without starting to lift flooring and removing units.

So there is no internal stop cock? Not saying this is impossible but I would be surprised. Either way;

Regardless, all pipes on the combi boiler gas and water are bonded and labelled. The gas supply at the meter is bonded and labelled and the water pipes in the kitchen are bonded and labelled. Since all pipe work is copper and there is no plastic piping it effectively forms a circuit without any interuptions.

If it can't be verified/isn't accessible then I'd code it. All pipes on the combi being bonded is irrelevant/unnecessary as without being able to verify the coding of the main water service then it cannot be signed of as being tested/checked. It shouldn't be hard to find it though, lifting floors is not required as it will be under the kitchen sink at least, which in the absence of any other pipework would mean this would be the entry point. I feel like a small amount of investigative work would sort this without lifting floors and removing units.

The light unit is a fan/light combo. I don't see how putting 1 missing shade on it make a differerence? The whole thing is made of metal. So long as it is correctly wired and earthed having the missing shade on it will make no differemnce. I don't understand how this ranks as a C2. A C3 I would understand.

Maybe a bit over-zealous on this one then. But then again, the shade forms part of the entire fitting and technically it is defective so he's not wrong. As I have already said, it's his name on the form.

 

[Andy™]

so if the council didnt 'force' you to do the EICR then you wouldnt have bothered and ended up with the installation in a potentially dangerous condition? would be better if all councils made it a requirement, the amount of rented properties ive been in that are dangerous but nothing ever gets done...

but you also have a muppet who doesnt deserve to be called an electrician.

 

[CinnamonDonkey]

@Lurch,

Thank your for the update.


@Andy,

Thank you for the response.

My home that I lived in for 15 years, which was rewired just before I bought it, didn't suddenly become dangerous because I let a tenant move in. It was well maintained, freshly decorated and in good state of repair (better than own my current home). It is no more dangerous than any other property on the same street which does not need and inspection.

Some of the issues this guy has brought up I'm happy to accept, a crack in a light switch, missing cover on the earth rod, high R1+Rn reading on one of the sockets (All C2).

But the house is not dangerous despite this going down in the Bristol County Council statistics as 'yet another failing property discovered'. Out of a list of 30 items, mostly C3 and NO C1, the rest are C2 of the above nature and F/I (which seems to be an excuse to go back in and waste time, he could have easily resolved these during the initial inspection).

I know you didn't say my house was dangerous   - I'm honestly not reading it that way either and to answer your question. Yes, you are correct I probably would not have bothered.

EICR's are recommended but not a legal requirement for private landlords (which you probably know) - except for those subject to SLL which is luck of the draw. The EICR is recommended as legal protection for the landlord, in the same way they should have legal insurance to cover them incase someone gets injured on the property grounds. It does off course also mean they tenant can have a higher degree of confidence in the property.

I've lived in my fair share of bad accomodation. One, in Sunderland,  had the live and neutral wired the wrong way round on the whole property! So to be honest, as mentioned above I have no problem with landlords being required to do inspections but it needs to be fair and some common sense needs to be applied.

In the same way that you can get bad landlords, you can equally get bad electricians who are out to take you for all they can and an EICR is the perfect opportunity. I could practically hear the cash registers ringing when I called some of these guys - seriously! They're letting you good guys down. 

How do I protect myself because any additional cost to me is an additional cost to my tenat - isn't the big thing about providing good affordable homes for people?

All this aside, given how important it is, why should only rented accommodation be singled out?  - personally I think all homes should be required to have period inspection, maybe once every 10 years?

 

[Lurch]

which does not need and inspection.

The point is, this should be changed. There is nothing to say that anything should be tested, only the gas installation on a rented property.

All this aside, given how important it is, why should only rented accommodation be singled out?

Same reason it is singled out for gas, because the renters are less likely to take care of things as you would in your own home. This is why the gas is tested every year and on every change of tenant. The electrical installation should be given the same treatment. TBF though, once the first test is done the rest are just checking that everything is still as it was so the first test will undoubtedly cost more as it will take longer to trace circuits and document non-compliances. Each test after should just be effectively visual and check readings haven't deteriorated.

 

[ProDave]

It's been law in Scotland for a few years now that all rental properties need a satisfactory eicr.

it does seem some things he has been over zealous over. Like a car MOT if you are unhappy with the results you can use a different electrician. Perhaps be there when it's done?  Thinks like water not bonded at the entry, if you can't identify the entry but can verify that it is bonded somewhere then I would probably put that as a C3

The one that worries me is the RCD.  An RCD is NOT an over current trip, it's an earth leakage trip, and usually with a 30mA trip rating.  It will have a maximum current rating and if that really is 30A then it's under sized and needs replacing. Perhaps you can look at it and tell us all the number that you can see written on it?

The bathroom light. It depends which zone it is in, it will have been rated when you bought it to say which zones it can be installed in.

 

 

[Andy™]

@Andy,

Thank you for the response.

My home that I lived in for 15 years, which was rewired just before I bought it, didn't suddenly become dangerous because I let a tenant move in.
Some of the issues this guy has brought up I'm happy to accept, a crack in a light switch, missing cover on the earth rod, high R1+Rn reading on one of the sockets (All C2).

you are correct, it didnt suddenly become dangerous because you let a tenant move in. it was already broken & dangerous (partially through general wear and tear) while you were living there before the tenant moved in which you ignored and failed to repair. so no, it was not 'in good state of repair'

ironically, its landlords like you neglecting the electrics which is why it is becoming a requirement

but like said before, you do seems to have an idiot doing the EICR in the first place. it may be easier to simply get someone else (preferably someone who has been recommended & knows how to do EICR's) to do it

 

[rapparee]

My home that I lived in for 15 years, which was rewired just before I bought it, didn't suddenly become dangerous because I let a tenant move in. It was well maintained, freshly decorated and in good state of repair (better than own my current home). It is no more dangerous than any other property on the same street which does not need and inspection.

 

A well decorated house means nothing, a friend of mine has recently moved into a rented property in Co Louth that has just been renovated. It is immaculate. The other night I got a video phone call from him asking for assistance on how to change a fuse. When he showed me the "consumer unit" I was amazed to see that it was as old as the hills with old style screw in dz11 type fuses. Unfortunately a lot of people are all fur coat and no knickers if you know what I mean.

The other thing is. You can choose to live in whatever kind of house you like, however if you are renting a house you are charging someone money to live there, this makes it a business transaction so you have a duty of care to provide it up to a certain standard. You can't be selling faulty goods.

Now I'm sure the original tester was over zealous and I'm not insinuating that you're a slum landlord but the standards have to be there.

 

[Doc Hudson]

@Andy,
Thank you for the response.

My home that I lived in for 15 years, which was rewired just before I bought it, didn't suddenly become dangerous because I let a tenant move in. It was well maintained, freshly decorated and in good state of repair (better than own my current home). It is no more dangerous than any other property on the same street which does not need and inspection.

All this aside, given how important it is, why should only rented accommodation be singled out?  - personally I think all homes should be required to have period inspection, maybe once every 10 years?

As an observation, if your property was rewired, presumably by a reputable electrician, there should have been a label already on the board recommending a re-inspection within maximum 10 years time. BS7671 wiring regulations recommends all domestic properties are inspected and tested every 10 years or change of occupancy and rented properties every 5 years or change of occupancy. This is not new guidance it has been around for a long time. The problem being that BS7617 is non-statutory guidance for good practice. Many uneducated homeowners have no understanding of these recommendations or any concept about the dangers of electricity or how quickly it can kill a healthy adult. This is why many private homeowners and landlords just follow the, 'every things working, so it must be alright', principle.

Did the electrician have copies of previous inspection reports made available to him whilst doing your inspection. Access to previous reports, or electrical installation certificates, can reduce the amount of further investigations required. If there is remedial work to be done there is no obligation to use the same electrician who did the inspection. So any reputable inspector will not be using it as a shopping list to organise additional work. It certainly does look as though your electrician has made some inaccurate assessments of perceived danger or non-compliance with BS7671. But also from any electricians position, once they have issued you with a signed document saying that in their opinion the installation is satisfactory for continual use, if anyone did get injured, they leave themselves open to a legal minefield if any blame can be pointed back at their inspection report. For this reason some can get a bit to over cautious, not necessarily looking for more work, more just making sure their back is covered. Doubts and inexperience at inspection and testing can produce similar result on a report.

Doc H.

 

[Evans Electric]

I realise that rented properties in Scotland now have to have an electrical inspection along with the gas etc.    I have no problem with this .

I just wonder if  Bristol County Council Selective licensing Scheme are in a position to legally force this upon one landlord but not another ...how is that a democratic action ?     It reminded me of when Birmingham Council insisted that a contractor's workforce on a council site will consist of 1/3rd of them from an inner city area .

( A map showing these areas was enclosed in the spec )  

I would not be surprised if this becomes law in England in the not too distant future.   But this doesn't help  Mr Donkey , who has been blessed with an over enthusiastic tester.

 

[CinnamonDonkey]

Thank you everyone for your helpful and constructive feedback Some very good points made. 

The main Electrician (the person I am dealing with) sent two of his guys out to do the test work. So he never actually attended the property himself - this kinda aligns with some of the comments made above. 

No previous documentation was supplied. Everything was organised by phone/email and I wasn't asked at any point for documentation - although to be honest I wouldn't know where to find it now, I've moved 3 times since relocating (including renting myself) and the property is over 200 miles away from where I am based. 

As I previously mentioned I don't mind if inspections become a basic requirement, I just think it should be the same rule for all and it should be fair. At the moment, a guy several streets over wouldn't be subjected to the same requirements that I must meet. Imagine how the same treatment would affect your business. But that's not what this thread is about.  

Now that there seems to be consensus that some of his points are over zealous - What's the best way to approach this guy in terms of discussing the report and my concerns? I don't want to be an arse and go storming in - for all I know the guy may be perfectly legit and reasonable.

But what are my rights? I know I could call another electrician in but I'm already into this guy £200 for cost of the inspection, it makes sense if we can come to an agreeable solution. 

Some people, not on here, have mentioned making and appeal with the Electrical Safety Authority. This seems a bit heavy handed but is it an option should we come to a point were we don't see eye to eye?  

 

[CinnamonDonkey]

Would another Electrician be happy to pick up from the existing test report and resolve/certify as necessary without going through the whole process again from the start? 

 

[Andy™]

start by asking for the specific regulation for each observation

you could also post a copy of the report here. we like a bit entertainment

Would another Electrician be happy to pick up from the existing test report and resolve/certify as necessary without going through the whole process again from the start? 

i would do any remedials you asked for and give relevant MWC or EIC but i would not give you a safisfactory EICR unless i had done everything myself

 

[Lurch]

What's the best way to approach this guy in terms of discussing the report and my concerns?

Pretty much discuss them as we have here. Highlight your concerns and maybe he can exclude some of the over-zealous areas/retest with a better idea of where things are while doing the few actual C1/C2 items. It would be in your best interests to get the same electrician to do it as you are more likely to recover some of the costs as another electrician would have to go over the whole thing again so you'd be no better off at this point.

But what are my rights? I know I could call another electrician in but I'm already into this guy £200 for cost of the inspection, it makes sense if we can come to an agreeable solution. 

Exactly. Your rights are you can pay him for the admittedly odd mix of over-zealous/half-arsed EICR and then get someone else in to do the remedials and retest but you would be paying for this again, or work with the current electrician to come to some sort of agreement, so basically you can do whatever you want.

Would another Electrician be happy to pick up from the existing test report and resolve/certify as necessary without going through the whole process again from the start? 

Unlikely. A.N. Other electrician should be unwilling to sign a certificate on the back of another random electrician having been and done the testing. I certainly wouldn't sign a complete EICR without actually doing the testing myself, and I doubt any insurances/warranties would be valid, and I would be dubious of the skills/ethical standings of anyone who says they would. Basically if someone did say they would I wouldn't trust anything they did so it would make the whole thing not worth the paper it was written on.

 

[Evans Electric]

Without re- checking  ( Its midnight now)   I'm pretty sure if the report has C1 & C2's   it has to be signed as " Unsatisfactory "   

You didn't mention any C1's  so I'm thinking the next action is to get the C2'S  corrected , preferably by a different sparks. 

The C2's have been pointed out on the original so a Minor Works Cert  showing all the C2's corrected ought to suffice. 

Or a straight copy of the original but without any C2's  , signed off as "Satisfactory".     

C3's these days  are often things that do not comply with the latest edition of the Regs .  ( This basically means that something was deemed as safe , sound, wonderful modern installation work at 2359 hours on a Sunday night ....but two minutes later on a Monday morning are deemed to be unsafe , dangerous , liable to burst into flames under the latest edition )

 

[phil d]

A guy I know is a landlord, at first he was a bit miserly, always trying to save a few quid on things and quibbling about costs, anyway one day he rang as he needed something done and I deliberately said I was unavailable, he had to get someone else there was no option, on getting their bill he soon realised that I was being more than fair with him. His lettings agency insists on an EICR at every change of tenancy and I insist on one every 5 years. I also got him to have it in his tenancy agreements that any electrical work the tenant wants, e.g if they want to change a light fitting must be done by his electrician (me), for some reason the pubs around here are full of "electricians" or "plumbers" on a Friday night! Most of his tenants are long term so there isn't a problem, occasionally we get one who doesn't stay. Last year he bought a property and it needed some work on it, I did this and a nice young lady moved in, unfortunately she didn't stay long, I don't think she could afford it, now the guy is being ok with me but he still needed a new EICR to satisfy the agency. Being reasonable is a two way thing so as she hadn't been in the property long and certainly hadn't touched the electrics I went and did another inspection free of charge. It may seem a bit daft to some people not charging him, but in the end I get it back in other ways, he's coming around to my way of thinking now and there's very little aggro, he pays up on time and doesn't question my prices. I think it's an important thing to find a decent person to do your work whatever it is, if you learn to trust them and they trust you it can be a very rewarding and pleasant experience. This landlord tried other electricians, but soon realised he was onto a good thing with me, inspections needn't be an expensive thing if you keep on top of your maintenance, I suppose it's like a car at MOT time, neglect it for the other 11 months of the year and an MOT can be expensive, spend a few quid here and there throughout the year and the MOT is usually quite painless.

 

[Doc Hudson]

But what are my rights? I know I could call another electrician in but I'm already into this guy £200 for cost of the inspection, it makes sense if we can come to an agreeable solution. 

Some people, not on here, have mentioned making and appeal with the Electrical Safety Authority. This seems a bit heavy handed but is it an option should we come to a point were we don't see eye to eye?  

No idea who or what this electrical safety authority is supposed to be?  Is you contractor a member of one of the electrical trades bodies, NICEIC, NAPIT, ECA, STROMA, BSI, i.e. is the condition report on their logoed paper. If so you should be able to make a complaint to his trade body.  As has been said It would be good to request confirmation of which regulation numbers he thinks things like bedroom shade are contravening. Back to the stop tap item (C2, F/I),  as far as I am aware you cannot have two codes for the same observation, you can only put a C1 'immediate danger', or C2 'potentially dangerous', on an item that you have proved to be dangerous. If it requires future investigation then you do not know at this point if it is or isn't dangerous. There are thousands of properties where old bonding connections have been buried behind kitchen cabinets or boxed in around the down stairs toilet. You can get a reasonable idea if there ever was a bonding wire by looking at wires at the fuse box, (though as looping is permitted, it may not always be the case.) A simple continuity test between the pipe work and electrical earth can give a pointer to if bonding is present or not.

Doc H.