RCD or the appliance?

[Doc Hudson]

Something else you should ask your electrician about. Why are the smoke detectors on a separate circuit and not one of the lighting circuits? In the event of a fault on the smokes you won’t know about it, if the lights fault you will.

If routine testing is undertaken as per manufactures instructions I think no matter where the supply comes from it will be identified. While some would suggestions that combined with lights the supply is more reliable, there is also a counter argument that a dedicated supply is less susceptible to DIY interference. Judging by the amount of questions we have had over the years with problems like "I've just changed a light fitting and other rooms have stopped working?",  It is just as probable a homeowner doing a DIY light circuit alteration could accidentally disconnect power to the smokes (either live or neutral), by failing to reconnect a cable after their DIY work and be none the wiser to the loss of power to his smoke detectors. Not a fat lot different to users neglecting to quarterly test their RCD's. Any item(s) providing a safety function are only as good as the users knowledge about how to monitor, test and maintain the item(s) irrespective about where they are powered from. In my opinion the dedicated circuit -vs- Lighting circuit supply is six of one and half a dozen of the other regarding reliability if the customer never tests it anyway. Sometimes it comes down to practicalities and logistics of where to get a supply from. Plus I know of people who rarely use actual lighting circuits, as they prefer table lamps and scented candles, they would be none the wiser about a supply failure to their smoke detectors either way.

Doc H.

 

[Doc Hudson]

And now this! This is the under counter appliance switch for washing machine.

That isn't right, is it? Looks wrong. Appliance socket right next to wm waste pipe, too close and too low. Opinions please.  What regs are there for under counter sockets... I only know 30cms from sink. 

View attachment 9653

Which came first socket or pipe?  Is it bad plumbing or bad wiring?  however it is not rocket science to know the size of the average washing machine etc. height and typical water inlet outlet positions.  I would probably fitted that socket higher up the wall.

Doc H

 

[Doc Hudson]

House rewired at considerable cost during last 2 weeks.  Yesterday bloke says it's finished.  Today, I plugged the vacuum into the hallway socket and the downstairs circuit trips (same vacuum cleaner never tripped my old house btw).    Then plugged vacuum into upstairs landing socket and they didn't trip... but the upstairs lights did.  Only the upstairs lights.   Yeah, so vacuuming in the gloom and pretty confused as to why the lights went but the upstairs sockets didn't trip.    Can someone shed some light on this (pun intended) and what could be going on.        Is it likely the appliance, the RCD or something not right with the fixed wiring?    Haven't spoken to the electrician yet but will definitely be speaking to him on Monday about this and the 3 socket boxes he left not properly screwed in (mains on),  one with a nice almost 2 cm gap for my kid to get his fingers/hand into if he so chose.    ,

To answer your question Malarky,  it is 99.99% likely that the RCD is operating correctly, the appliances are not faulty, but the wiring is connected wrong and/or has not been fully tested before energising the installation. There is in my opinion no sensible reason why any competent person would not be able to test and verify the RCD(s) before connecting any circuits onto them. And test and verify each circuit in turn as they are connected onto the installation. Now if they have just banged all the wiring in and connected up without any testing, before trying to energise the installation then there are numerous scenarios that could cause your symptoms. It needs a bit of a step back, test each circuit and RCD in turn to identify if you have single or multiple faults.

Doc H.

 

[Murdoch]

Something else you should ask your electrician about. Why are the smoke detectors on a separate circuit and not one of the lighting circuits? In the event of a fault on the smokes you won’t know about it, if the lights fault you will.

There are sparks around who swear smokes HAVE to be on seperate circuits ..... never understand why

 

[Doc Hudson]

There are sparks around who swear smokes HAVE to be on seperate circuits ..... never understand why

Plus, the actual need for a dedicated smoke circuit, can become irrelevant when using radio-link devices, they could well be off multiple circuits as the most economically practical method of supply.

Doc H.

 

[Evans Electric]

thought that unlabelled mcb was off, simply because it was spare and not used?

Yeah  !  I saw the MCB  down &  jumped in thinking  thats what tripped ,  must be a radial  to the landing ..... thought thats what the guy is telling us .  

 

[Murdoch]

Came across this last year in a new build ....



I wasn't sure how the installer managed to ensure compliance of the 1st 3 circuits as they sure weren't in surface trunking

 

[Sharpend]

The likelyhood of the installing electrician having any input on design is next too nothing on a mass new build (unless independent builder and spark on a small project) site, it would be installed as per the architects/designers specifications.  

 

[Murdoch]

The likelyhood of the installing electrician having any input on design is next too nothing on a mass new build (unless independent builder and spark on a small project) site, it would be installed as per the architects/designers specifications.  

Yup small site, small sparky business .......

still, even if the architect stated that config .... who would not question said architect ?...

 

[ProDave]

Yup small site, small sparky business .......

still, even if the architect stated that config .... who would not question said architect ?...

All the new builds that I wire are individual houses and I am working directly for the house owner.

I largely ignore what the architect may have put on the plans. That is usually just boilerplate stuff for planning and building control.  Instead I spend some time with the client walking around the house working out what they really want, where sockets, switches and lighting will go, where is the oven, hob, boiler, HW tank etc and design to actual requirements.

 

[Sharpend]

I actually agree with both Murdoch and Dave, however in large developments the voice of the tradesman goes unheard generally and in many instances the younger sparks question nothing merely look at the job as a means to an end and no more. 

 

[Evans Electric]

the voice of the tradesman goes unheard generally

Always the way ,   we had a job at a Girl's grammer school by here ,   they  had to have an external steel fire escape  fitted .   Designed by a city architect ,  the stairway  came from the first floor ,   hard to explain ....it came out  from the building before going down & round .

We said to the architect that , looking at the drawing , the 8 watt emergency fittings  were just fitted to the wall  and would offer no light at all  onto the stairway .

My words , diplomatically,  were  "  We thought we should mention this "            He famously replied with "  I'm sorry ...you thought ...you're not paid to think ...I'm paid to think ...you just do as my drawing  says "     

So that was it , we fitted them miles from the stairs  and cashed the cheque .

 

[Sharpend]

And this is my point at what stage does an architect have status over a trained bs7671 compliant sparks? Not too mention if you also happened to hold the C&G2396 or equivalent ticket? Are architects the all trained all seeing of every trade prior to being allowed to draw a picture? 

 

[Evans Electric]

They are a strange breed  , most of them .  This one thought his steel fire escape was on a par with the Shard  or one of those magnificent bridges .  

We had another who , at the start of the project ,  an  ophthalmic teaching facility at a university .....  took us aside to say  he wanted everything "On mod"   If get everything  "On mod"   we will all get on fine .  

I had to ask  " What does it mean , "On mod"?     So every light fitting is in the centre of a tile ...every  electric box on the walls  is in the centre of a tile .   Thankfully this only became a problem  in the toilets  where a steel 20mm  conduit  was dropped into the wall chase for the light switch  ...but no one could tell us where the centre of the tile was going to be .  

He actually said to me ...you'll have to work it out , but rest assured  if its not in the centre  I'll have  you move it .       I left  the conduits short  , in the chase  to await the advance of the tiling .  The builder  was doing his nut  , the architect dug his heels in ,   so did I  .  We requested , in writing , at the next site meeting for a  scale drawing  depicting the exact layout of the shytehouse tiles ,  which obviously couldn't be  delivered .  The tiler did his nut ..   he didn't want to cut a hole in the centre  of a tile ....they all wanted me fix a switch box  but  I'm a stubborn ****  ...we fitted some flexible conduit  and a box and waited  until the  position could be  marked  out .  

The whole issue actually cost  a lot of money , because they all thought we 'd fit a box , get it wrong ,  get charged for removing tiles , replastering , retiling etc .

Unfortunately I'm a stubborn **** in such cases .

Lets face it , you want a light switch in a toilet ,   so near the door , about 4ft 6""   off the  FFL  job done .  

 

[Sharpend]

If you’d have said that you didn’t want too upset the zing and zang of the job by having to make trades do same job twice then he’d of understood. They’re all about the flow through the building. 

 

[Tony S]

We said to the architect that , looking at the drawing , the 8 watt emergency fittings  were just fitted to the wall  and would offer no light at all  onto the stairway .

My words , diplomatically,  were  "  We thought we should mention this "            He famously replied with "  I'm sorry ...you thought ...you're not paid to think ...I'm paid to think ...you just do as my drawing  says "     

You’re not paid to think, you do as I say. I had an engineering manager say that to me as he handed over a set of drawings. OK, will do. It was never going to work but he wanted it done his way so I did it his way. The other shift engineer joined in with the game. After several similar episodes our gallant leader went on sick leave, never to return.

 

[kerching]

On a new build a few years ago I had an architect demand a meeting to discuss the location of sockets, lights etc. Type of finish etc

I told him it had already been decided between me and the client ( I had known client for years and knew more about what she wanted than she did).  Architect was not happy and said he needed to provide his thoughts. I calmly explained I was working for the client and his input was equivalent to the size of the hole left in a bucket of water when you remove your hand from it

as I have said on many occasions

Architect from the Greek Archae.    Meaning 'bloke'. And tect  meaning 'knowing nothing'

 

[binky]

Architects - wouldn't mind if they listened to construvtive criticism before it turns out to a firk-up as predicted by me!

One rather arrogant female of said species liked to make the comment that she drew it, it was up to the builder and other trades to make it work to plan... :shakehead