Replacing A Double Light Switch

[brman]

I seemed to have pressed 'post' more than once on that last reply. Goin on what you say, I have only one rcd thats connected to sockets and the cooker. Everything else doesnt have one. Mind you the first box has a label that states part is protected by rcd. Nothing like that on the fusebox for the shower. So whats the next step, have an electrician connect an rcd to the lights and is that absolutely neccessary. Shower? Should that switch have an rcd and if there are regulations for these things then why would the original building contractors not have fitted these?

I think our posts crossed but see my last post for comments on RCDs on lighting ccts.

As to the shower, It is a similar situation. IF everything else is ok (eg supplimentary bonding, equipotential bonding etc) then it will not be classed as potentially dangerous and was probably ok according to the regulations in place at the the time it was installed. However the regulations have moved on this then and so, if it was to be installed now, it would have an RCD fitted (as would lights for that matter). (note the probably above, it all depends on how and when it was installed)

Again it is down to risk, there is less risk with a shower compared to a metal light switch in that (normally at least) the shower doesn't have any external metal parts that could become live in the case of a fault. On the other hand, if something did become live then the risk to you is much higher as you will be naked and covered in water when you touch it. Plus if you ever did any DIY in the shower area (eg fit a soap tray or rail) and hit the shower cable then you could make that tray/rail etc live.

These sort of reasons is why the latest regulations say that all circuits in a room with a bath or shower are required to be RCD protected.

 

[brman]

btw when I use the term "potentially dangerous" I am refering to how I would classify it if I was doing an electrical inspection on the property. The observation grades are:

C1; Dangerous - requires urgent fixing (eg live parts accessible)

C2: Potentially dangerous - Requires fixes asap but not dangerous at this moment in time. eg. the situation if a live cable touches an un-earthed metal cover. (so the cover stays live as the fuse/rcd will not trip)

C3: Improvement recommended. Something that is not classed as dangerous or potentially dangerous but fixing it would still improve the reliability or safety of the installation.

Lack of RCD on a lighting circuit (when bonding etc was ok in bathrooms) would classify as a C3. ie. the current regs require it but the risk is not thought to be high enough to demand it is fixed asap.

btw. This reminds me. How old is the property and when did you move in to it? (also do you own or rent it?) It is a pretty good idea to get periodic electrical inspections done anyway and they would detail this sort of stuff for you. (but at a cost of course.....)

 

[ProDave]

Hi Roy.

its a relatively ne build flat. I would assume the shower does have an rcd. Mind I dont know an rcd from a dvd but the first fuse box does have a clearly marked rcd with test switch. The shower has its own fuse on the second wylex fuse box (not the same box as the lights and sockets) The lights have a white switch on their fuse, the sockets and cooker have a red switch (and clearly marked rcd) the shower has a separate fuse with red switch but there is no clearly marked rcd as seen on the first box.

each set of fuses on each box apart from the sockets and cooker has a main large red switch separate from the fuses.

Hope this makes some sense.

It's some time since Wylex circuit breakers had colour coded switches, so that doesn't stack with it being a relatively new build.  It would also have to be pre about 2008 to not need an RCD on the lights.

I wonder why the shower has a separate consumer unit? was there no space in the main one? or is it part of an economy 7 or other all electric heating system?  It would be better to have the shower protected by the same rcd that protects the sockets, or it's own rcd.

 

[terry]

Yeah its pre 2008, was referring to the older houses around here.

this is a pic of the fuse box and cheers for all that info.

I picked up the shower switch and thats different from the existing as well!!

The existing one has balck and red wires the same but has an extra two wires running from the bottom live and neutral bat at a different port Nd connects to the small light at tge top. The new switch doesnt have an extra two ports only live neutral and earth?

Would this switch have an internal connection so just a switch over from l. N and . N? and good to go?

 

[brman]

I'd don't see any pic of the fusebox.....

I don't fully follow your description of the shower switches but they should both have a supply line and neutral plus a load line and neutral plus at least one earth terminal. Any extras to supply a neon light can be ignored (assuming the new switch has a neon it may well be wired internally).

Do make sure you get the supply and load the right way round though or you will have the neon on all the time rather than when switched on

Also, make sure the terminals are done up correctly, it is amazing how many burnt out shower switches I see which appear to be because of poor connections. 

 

[Blue Duck]

Is this getting a bit complicated?

Here is a wylex 16th (previous regs)board

The shower is on its own board something like this?

http://s7g3.scene7.com/is/image/ae235/87896_P?$p$

Now the average DIYer isn't going to have the equipment to be testing the cables although you can do R1/R2's / long lead test to the MET with a multimeter or bell it out. but they probably shouldn't be rooting about in the DB without some training/experience and a torque driver :lol:

If you feel you out of your depth then you should get a sparky in.

Anyone he here in your area?

 

[brman]

Is this getting a bit complicated?

Here is a wylex 16th (previous regs)board

The shower is on its own board something like this?

http://s7g3.scene7.com/is/image/ae235/87896_P?$p$

Now the average DIYer isn't going to have the equipment to be testing the cables although you can do R1/R2's / long lead test to the MET with a multimeter or bell it out. but they probably shouldn't be rooting about in the DB without some training/experience and a torque driver :lol:

If you feel you out of your depth then you should get a sparky in.

Anyone he here in your area?

I have a feeling Terry's boards are older than those but I could be wrong.

To be honest, one of the reasons for a lot of the stuff in my posts is to show things are more complicated than they first appear. If Terry doesn't feel confident of the things being talked about then yes, he really should be getting a spark to do the job.

 

[ProDave]

Yeah its pre 2008, was referring to the older houses around here.

this is a pic of the fuse box and cheers for all that info.

No picture showing. How did you post it?

you need to click "more reply options" at the bottom right 

If it's a picture uploaded to a file host somewhere, click the "image" icon in the top tool bar.  If it's a picture on your local pc, use thr attach files option underneath the editing window.

 

[terry]

I tried to upload the pic through more reply options, im not using a pc, im usin a smartphone but it didnt load?

Yeah tge box is similar to the one above just smaller and two of them. The rcd in the first box is placed like this: sockets, sockets, cooker (rcd) lights, lights, smoke alarm. When the rcd ia tested the sockets and cooker trip but lights and I assume smoke alarm remain on so probably not connected. The second wylex box fusing everything else has no rcd.

all light switch replacements, plug socket and shower switch have been fitted and yeah the shower switch had an internal wiring fir the pilot light so no problems there.

my partners friend's Dad is an electrician. He helped out when the brother in law switched over a light switch, didnt mark where the wires went and messed it up so we'r gonna ask him to come have a look at this.

And yeah, I'm comfortable doing the work so far but thats where my comfort zone ends without some sort of training which my partnes is advocating for (she wants me to do some night classes, lol )

Glad I discussed this topic though. I had changed all switches and sockets to metal in one of the rooms in my last place and didnt earth any of them so I may have dodged a bullet there. I rented thelast place so they would have been changed when I gave up the tenancy bythe local authority.

We own this place though.

Im in the yoker area of glasgow btw

Thought I should mention. The rcd isnt like the one you posted brman, its roughly the size of two fuses on the board with a white test button and blue switch.

and yes. This is getting complicated. I like the topic but the Mrs thinks im either: A. Going to blow up the house. Or B. Going to do myself a mischief forcing her in to early retirement and fun in the sun with my insurance money :-D

Btw. The pic file is too big to upload. Sorry guys.

 

[ProDave]

What is the "everything else" in this second box with a shower MCB?.  As you can't post pictures describe everything from left to right as before.

Also are there any labels like Total Control, A circuits, B circuits etc?

 

[terry]

Here it is Dave, I changed my camera settings.

Difficult to read on that pic so second box labelled this way: main switch for C circuits. (First label obscured) kitchen. Hall. Lounge. Main switch for B circuits. Convector heater. Immersion heater. Panel heater. Panel heater. Shower. Main switch for A circuits.

 

[ProDave]

As I thought, you have the Total Control tariff.

That's one not available any more to new customers, but was fitted in a lot of local authority houses in Scotland in the past. (I think it may even be a tariff unique to Scotland)

It has the big benefit that all your convector heaters AND your shower get metered at the cheap rate 24/7

A circuits are normally hot water, not sure why you don't appear to have an immersion heater?  B circuits are metered at the cheap rate but only on at night and for a boost in the mid day, that's for your storage heaters. And C circuits are panel heaters, focal point heaters and your shower that are on all the time and metered at the cheap rate all the time.

So you don't want to move the shower to the other consumer unit as it will get charged the higher rate.

The best thing you can do is get an electrician to change the Main Switch circuits A switch for another RCD like the one feeding the sockets on your left hand consumer unit.

99% of total control installations I see use that very same Wylex consumer unit. At the time they must have done a special one split into the three circuits like that.

Get him also to fit some blanks to fill the holes in between the switches.

 

[NozSpark]

Also the 2 BFO ones on the top surfaces

 

[terry]

Hey guys.

yes. I am at it again, tinkering about wi the house electrics.

This time id like some advice on a panel heater.

there used to be a panel heater in this flat but the previous owners yook them out. Could I take the face plate off and simply replace it with a plug?

The fuse box for the panel heaters is on the pic I posted earlier.

again, thanks for all the help and advice guys.

 

[ProDave]

you can fit a socket there and it will work.

BUT

As I said before you are on an old Total Control tariff.  A quirk of that is that the supply to the panel heaters is metered at the cheap rate 24/7.

So, if you fit a socket there, then all that uses will be metered at the cheap rate 24/7.

I would expect there to be something in the terms & conditions for that tariff that the cheap rate supply is only for heating appliances like panel heaters, water heaters and showers, and not for general use.

In the real world probably nobody would notice, but if you ever move out remove the socket and replace the blank.

 

[terry]

Thats brilliant Dave, cheers.

I am placing a panel heater there. Its an economy number costing 3p per hour to run so should be okay.

this forum is ace, wouldve cost me a pretty penny for a spark to do the work or to give the advice you guys give for free.

 

[ProDave]

If you are putting a panel heater there, then rather than a socket, put a 20A double pole switch with a flex outlet.

Then there is no doubt you are using it for it's intended pupose for a heater anf nothing else, and nobody will have cause for complaint.

"Economy" panel heaters just use less power, so it takes longer to heat up, so the same number of KWh used overall. No real saving I am afraid.

 

[terry]

I think I just took off a 20amp switch with a flex outlet left there when the heater was removed! Its all good rhiugh as it worked a treat anyway.

The heater is in a corner of the bedroom by the door so definitely nothing else would be used at that socket and ill remins the mrs the same. We dont plan on selling this flat anytime soon and to my kmowledge no one has ever asked to inspect the wiring etc.

Incidentally, what are the issues when using the switch for anything else?

 

[ProDave]

It will be a terms and conditions thing, otherwise you could connect everything to the off peak supply and just get charged the cheap rate for everything.

 

[terry]

Cool. Cheers Dave. If ever in Glasgow I owe you a pint!