Scottish Rentals require a current satisfactory EICR.........

[Nicky Tesla]

Agreed but a nosey real finger does not find much trouble in dislodging those thin plastic blanks that slide onto the front slot of a CU either.
But yes. Put a decent blank in if you have one.

 

[UNG]

“That tape is all that stops someone putting a finger in and onto the busbar.“
If it stops a finger then it stops a test finger.

With that comment I doubt you have ever seen a British Standard test finger
On a recent course I did the tutor did not even know they existed until I mentioned it then he looked it up he was going to buy one until I pointed out the cheapest one was around £450

Agreed but a nosey real finger does not find much trouble in dislodging those thin plastic blanks that slide onto the front slot of a CU either.
But yes. Put a decent blank in if you have one.

The soft plastic blanks maybe but the hard plastic blanks are a lot harder to dislodge, ok the British Standard test finger does not have finger nails to prise them out but the plastic ones are a lot safer and will put up more resistance to penetration that a bit of tape will. Be it a nosey finger or a nosey screwdriver it is difficult to protect some people from their own stupidity
My spares box CU blank of choice is the Crabtree or Wylex metal twist fit blanks although you have to remove the cover to fit them they also take up a lot less space than the "decent" ones you suggest by a factor of around 20 to 1

 

[Bruspark]

Seems to me :
Some Landlords feel they might need a certificate but if so it's more as an alternative to complete or up to date electrical safety than a guarantee
Letting agents definitely want the certificate . . and their commission
Plenty of people in the dark corners of the trade happy to print one off and maybe even write the property address on it.

State of the country today

 

[UNG]

Plenty of people in the dark corners of the trade happy to print one off and maybe even write the property address on it.

I think there are plenty of people in some slightly lighter corners of the trade doing it as well
The big problem is we have trade scams misleading the general public and this is perpetuated by the press, consumer TV and dare I say forums like this one
How many posters have all these forums had over the years from the "I have my 18th edition and C&G2391" how can I get out there doing EICR's, ok the scams are tightening things up now but there are plenty that are whinging about that
Someone may correct me but to my knowledge the NICEIC and NAPIT only do assessments on installed work and not EICR's yet confirm that some contractors have been assessed to carry out EICR's, again it does not matter whether the assessed contractor has 1, 100 or 1000 employees one half day assessment covers them all regardless of ability
In the past 10years and may be longer I have not seen an ECIR produced by an NICEIC or NAPIT registered contractor that was close to being accurate and quite a few have been a copy of a previous EICR.
The most recent of these a few weeks ago was presented to the client by their NICEIC registered insurance company although they had contracted the work to an NICEIC registered facilities company who got a subsiduary company who appear not to be NICEIC registered although they have an NICEIC compliance manager to do the EICR a number of C2's were listed on the current and previous EICR, 2 of the C2's were very interesting as the board they were attached to has no mains supply connected to it, I was asked to explain to the area manager what it all meant a quick walk round and the EICR missed at least 1 C2 and possibly another 2 C2's, I asked the branch manager how long it took them to do the EICR the reply was I don't remember but it wasn't that long
So even some high profile companies are doing it with the blessing of the NICEIC

State of the country today

It went to the dogs years ago with Labour's Part P and the promotion of low grade skills that changed the industry

 

[binky]

It went to the dogs years ago with Labour's Part P and the promotion of low grade skills that changed the industry

at least they tried to change the industry, but I've always been of the opinion it was never tight enough, ie should have been more like the Gas industry. The one good thing is it did put off some builders from doing electrical work.

As for assessing competence for EICRs, it was always based on technical knowledge of the regs rather than watching people do an inspection.

 

[UNG]

at least they tried to change the industry, but I've always been of the opinion it was never tight enough, ie should have been more like the Gas industry.

They didn't try to change the industry they did their very best to destroy it and they are now reaping what they sowed with a lack of skilled workers and the older guy's hitting retirement. They allowed a select few carte blanche to develop or create and operate the money making scams that try to rule what we do
Gassafe is as bad as the electrical industry for writing up certs when there areclear and obvious faults on the installation so there is no point adopting what they have

The one good thing is it did put off some builders from doing electrical work.

Did it

As for assessing competence for EICRs, it was always based on technical knowledge of the regs rather than watching people do an inspection.

Back when I qualified it was understood that during the training over 3- 4 years you had been equiped by college attendance and on the job training and mainly full written closed book exams to work as a fully skilled electrician ready to tackle what was thrown at you. Where today we have an industry that has been carved up into limited skillsets / sectors with in a lot of cases extremely limited training and the advent of the multi choice very often open book exams
What we have now are those that get fed up with their current job and decide they want to be an electrician in 6 weeks time and having got the 2382 followed by 2391 seem to have been misled that it is the magic licence you need to go and do EICR's no doubt armed with a copy of codebreakers and an MFT that has green or red ticks to confirm the status of each test, yes the trade has been so dumbed down it has lost it's esteem
It is laughable when you get Domestic installers who decide to move into the commercial world and very quickly get out of their depth

The big issue with EICR's is installations vary a lot which can add to the complexity of some and therefore increase the time needed to properly complete it. I suspect the only reason we have not seen more deaths in recent years from electrical related injury is due to the RCD / RCBO requirements now

 

[binky]

@UNG it definetly put some builders off, at least the ones I did work for.

Quangos, all part of privatising everything as we have discussed many times before.

I don't know what the trade was like prior to Part P, as that was when I retrained, but I get the impression issuuing certs or doing any testing for a CU change was considered optional by many. And the fact the schemem was brought in says there were issues with the trade prior to that. So I'm not convinced standards were better prior to part p, at least not in domestic works, but at least we didn't have 5 week wonder courses.

The lack of new entrants is mostly down to how businesses work these days, with everything outsourced and lack of incentives to take on apprentices. Plus getting your hands dirty seems to be considered by many as work to avoid.

 

[UNG]

@UNG it definetly put some builders off, at least the ones I did work for.

But it never put them all off which was what was intended a lot of builders I knew back then carried on as never was and then you had all the Polish who wanted you to sign off their work round here

Quangos, all part of privatising everything as we have discussed many times before.

I'm not sure who or what you are calling quangos,
I was referring to the NICEIC and NAPIT who seemed to take on a different persona when Part P made it's appearance and became organisations whose primary objective was more about making money than protecting the consumer

I don't know what the trade was like prior to Part P, as that was when I restrained, but I get the impression issuuing certs or doing any testing for a CU change was considered optional by many.

I would concede that testing and issuing certification was not what it is today, but the quantity of test instruments a company owned then did not get close to the number of electricians employed and even on the bigger jobs not many asked for test certs and were more concerned with "as fitted" drawings

With regard to CU changes I think I have done more in the last 15 years than I did in the previous 30 years, with a lot of the CU changes as RCD's became the norm more customer wanted the extra safety of the RCD and the convenience of MCB's over fuses move on to the last few years and RCBO's are now norm
Looking back I think the last 20 - 25 years has possibly seen the fastest and largest rate of change of my electrical career and these days we do things a lot differently to when I first qualified although the basic principles are still the same

So I'm not convinced standards were better prior to part p, at least not in domestic works, but at least we didn't have 5 week wonder courses.

I think the workmanship was better and the quality of the materials we used was certainly better.
I think there are more people trying to make a fast buck these days and at times corners are being cut especially on EICR's

The lack of new entrants is mostly down to how businesses work these days, with everything outsourced and lack of incentives to take on apprentices. Plus getting your hands dirty seems to be considered by many as work to avoid.

With more young people being pushed towards university it does severely limit the quality of the recruitment pool which is why a lot of companies reduced their apprenticeship training also more and more companies are using sub-contractors or agency labour who don't want to carry an apprentice
When I look at the industry these days I often ask myself would I recommend it to someone and despite enjoying all the opportunities I've andd everything I have done I don't think I would, it is not the respected trade it once was and there are a lot of jobs paying a lot more without the constant training, purchasing of books and updating of kit

 

[binky]

@UNG the niceic and napit are quangos, businesses that pose as regulatory bodies, but are actually out to make a profit. Niceic changed when it was sold off to investors.

There were still plenty of builders and polish after sign off certs. I always told them to foxtrot oscar, I'm sure some didn't.

I think you are dead correct about quality of materials, the rush to the bottom ie cheap saw to that. As for skills, I think I'm right in that there seemed to be well trained, high quality sparks, usually from larger companies. But outsourcing seems to have reduced standards of work. Lack of finances in local government, and even private companies ie looking for the lowest price all the time certainly hasn't helped. What I encounter now is a right mish mash, some good, lots of average, and far too much rough but working. I think that reflects the financial decline of the country.

As far as eicrs go, agents pushing prices down, and wanting a cut of every job has left the rental sector open to the desperate ( polite way of saying *****). I only ever worked for one agent, the only one who didn't want a cut. I had plenty of enquiries from agents who wanted to dip into my money, aswell as charge the customer a mark up. Greed!

Cu changes, so many these days. Getting rid of old rewirable fuses made sense ( plus most of those boards were wood, although I've never seen a burnt out one ). Introduction of RCDs and RCBOs has certainly improved safety, and probably protected many customers from dodgy work.

 

[UNG]

@UNG the niceic and napit are quangos, businesses that pose as regulatory bodies, but are actually out to make a profit.

They are not quango's in the true sense as they to my knowledge do not receive any government funding although they do act like they are the government appointed trade overseers at times, as for profit for the NICEIC / Certsure that really started during the Emma Clancy years where growth and profit increased and quality and standards dropped

Niceic changed when it was sold off to investors.

I don't know when this was as Certsure is owned by Electrical Safety First and the Electrical Contractors Association, although I think the ECA being involved is a bit of a conflict of interest

There were still plenty of builders and polish after sign off certs. I always told them to foxtrot oscar, I'm sure some didn't.

I agree I always knocked them back saw the result of some Polish electrical work in a day nursery and it was not good

I think you are dead correct about quality of materials, the rush to the bottom ie cheap saw to that. As for skills, I think I'm right in that there seemed to be well trained, high quality sparks, usually from larger companies. But outsourcing seems to have reduced standards of work. Lack of finances in local government, and even private companies ie looking for the lowest price all the time certainly hasn't helped. What I encounter now is a right mish mash, some good, lots of average, and far too much rough but working. I think that reflects the financial decline of the country.

There have always been the operatives in the industry that went for the basic qualification level even 40 or 50 years ago but that basic level has been trimmed and pared back to what we have now, the C&G stopped the "C" certificate course and exam back in 2006 or 7 which was the higher level cert as the pass rate had fallen to such a low level that it was deemed unviable to continue. When you look at groups like this one there are plenty looking to get into the industry in the most minimal way they can in terms of cost and time which doesn't bode well for the future skill levels within the trade
In a lot of businesses now the balance sheet rules for the current crop of managers who have little or no knowledge of what they are managing while wanting higher productivity which does not allow for the training of the new crop of trades people

As far as eicrs go, agents pushing prices down, and wanting a cut of every job has left the rental sector open to the desperate ( polite way of saying *****). I only ever worked for one agent, the only one who didn't want a cut. I had plenty of enquiries from agents who wanted to dip into my money, aswell as charge the customer a mark up. Greed!

EICR's are on a race to the bottom and have been for a while and the 2391 IMO in the way it is presented has not helped the situation and again it is another exam that is being watered down

Cu changes, so many these days. Getting rid of old rewirable fuses made sense ( plus most of those boards were wood, although I've never seen a burnt out one ). Introduction of RCDs and RCBOs has certainly improved safety, and probably protected many customers from dodgy work.

Don't let that wood fool you it is hard to get it to burn you have to incinerate it rather than burn it, try taking a blowtorch to one

 

[Cables]

There’s just simple failings with with everything electrical, EICRS for one, it’s only valid for 5 years or change of tenancy…Whichever comes sooner, a tenant changes, most don’t get re-done, what’s changed, who’s been altering, adding?
Yet the Spark that did the EICR gets slated when it may not have been like that at the time they were there carrying out works.

 

[Murdoch]

There’s just simple failings with with everything electrical, EICRS for one, it’s only valid for 5 years or change of tenancy…Whichever comes sooner, a tenant changes, most don’t get re-done, what’s changed, who’s been altering, adding?
Yet the Spark that did the EICR gets slated when it may not have been like that at the time they were there carrying out works.

Not sure I agree with the “change of tenancy” bit

 

[Cables]

Not sure I agree with the “change of tenancy” bit

I think it’s a must, not all but many instances of properties where tenants have installed their own stuff without permission.l, some of it fine, some of it not so much.

 

[ProDave]

Not sure I agree with the “change of tenancy” bit

It is a requirement in Scotland for a fresh EICR at change of tenancy. May be different in Enlandshire.

 

[Murdoch]

It is a requirement in Scotland for a fresh EICR at change of tenancy. May be different in Enlandshire.

Wow. England is 5 years but I always recommended a shorter period if the tenancy changes every 12 months

 

[UNG]

With the poor quality of a lot of EICR's the next inspection date and reason for it is but a very minor issue in the grand scheme