Scout Hut Wiring Advice (3 Phase)

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fatherjack

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A few years ago I bought a house and rewired it. Read lots of stuff before I started, got pretty well versed in domestic wiring, borrowed an electrician friend's Megger, did a really good job of rewiring the house according the Council inspector. Job's a good-un.

Now I'm looking at our Scout Hut's wiring, to see if I can sort out their wiring. It's about 60 years old, and it look's like it's had a rewire once. There are currently no RCDs, and some of the sockets in the building don't work. At a bare minimum I want to get everything protected by RCDs, even if I didn't touch anything else.

For some reason, the Scout Hut has a three phase supply. It doesn't appear to really need it. There are 11 circuits:
  • Six 15A circuits for fan heaters, which have since been removed. (Evenly distributed across all phases).
  • A 5A circuit for lighting in the main hall and the kitchen (L1)
  • A 15A circuit for the water heater (L2)
  • A 30A circuit for the ring main (L2)
  • A 5A circuit for the toilet and entrance lights (L3)
  • A 30A circuit for the cooker, which doesn't work. (L3)
So we basically have the lights on L1 and the water heater and all the sockets on L2.

In future we're hoping to use induction hobs and air fryers when the Scouts are doing cooking, so could have six 2kW induction hobs and six 1.5kW air fryers running at the same time.

To heat the building in the winter we currently just have three 2kW fan heaters which turn on using timers a couple of hours before the meetings. Ideally we'd have some background heat all the time so that we didn't have problems with damp, but that might be something for another time.

My idea is to replace the current DB with a modern one (probably Contactum because they're less expensive and I used them in my house), with a four pole isolator and RCBOs for all the circuits. I'm going to keep the lighting circuits and the water heater circuit, as they appear to be ok. I was thinking of having either two or three rings in the hall - probably one for each side of the room, and a ring for the kitchen. The cooker circuit will go, I may add a circuit to send power out to the garage (I found a coil of 50m of armoured 4-core in their garage today - no idea why there's that much of it, but I may as well make use of it).

So, as well as wanting some advice about whether this makes sense or not, I also have a question about isolators and switch disconnectors. We currently have a 4-pole isolator on the meter board. The tails go into what I think is called a switch disconnector (a box with a big handle which disconnects everything), and then from there it goes into the DB. Is the switch disconnector necessary in this situation? I can see why you might want it in an industrial building where you may need to cut the power while everything is running, without worrying about arcing, but in our little installation is it really necessary, especially as we have an isolator on the meter board? I could just leave it, but the new DBs are much bigger that the old one, and there's not enough room to put a new DB abover the switch, so I was thinking to remove the switch to gain space. If this is a stupid idea however, I won't do it!

Anyway, thanks for reading all that (or just skipping to the last paragraph), and I look forward to some helpful advice :)
 
Wiring your own house is one thing but undertaking what you suggest is a different ball game in terms of liability. Your opening post suggests you are not competent to be doing this. The installation should be fully tested as the retro fitting of RCBOs maybe problematic and some circuits may not require it.
 
I may add a circuit to send power out to the garage (I found a coil of 50m of armoured 4-core in their garage today - no idea why there's that much of it, but I may as well make use of it).

No mention of what CSA the armoured 4 core is... ?
Bit like me saying I've found some T&E in the cellar can I use for my workshop?

A few years ago I bought a house and rewired it. Read lots of stuff before I started, got pretty well versed in domestic wiring, borrowed an electrician friend's Megger, did a really good job of rewiring the house according the Council inspector. Job's a good-un.

BS7671 covers ALL electrical installations, Domestic/Commercial/Industrial/Caravan site/Swimming pools/Medical locations etc.. etc.. etc... Fundamental principal are one and the same...

You still have got to verify condition & suitability of the earth arrangements, design all of your circuits to meet Earth loop impedance and disconnection times, suitable current capacities for installation methods etc etc..
Do the appropriate inspection & testing, document your results on an EIC, then sign the declaration that is complies with current BS7671.

Just curious why you haven't just read up a bit more stuff and contacted your mate with the megger?
 
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Before considering any electrical aspects I would suggest you make sure your back is covered in writing from whoever controls the use of the 'Scout hut'..
e.g. The building owner / Scouts.Org.Uk / Community hall committee / and-or other third parties who also use the hall..

As the HSE expects them to have legal obligations around the various aspects of managing, running & maintaining the building, and assessing the potential risks to all users of the building..
https://www.hse.gov.uk/voluntary/work-types/village-and-community-halls.htm

Their Health & Safety checklist for managers of community buildings does suggests that electrical related items must be inspected and tested by an electrician or suitably qualified person before being put into use.
https://www.hse.gov.uk/voluntary/assets/docs/village-hall.pdf

So, if you cannot prove that you are "an electrician" or "suitably qualified" you will probably need a signed declaration stating that those who manage the building are happy to accept Full liability and responsibility for any work you do, which may later prove to be dangerous due to your lack of experience and/or qualifications..
Otherwise you will not have a leg to stand on if anything goes pear-shaped..

(A few years ago a young child was killed due to faulty lighting wiring at a pub, done by a mate of the landlord who knew how to to "DIY electrics"... Prosecutions followed!!)

BS761 wiring regulations are non-statutory guidance, and DIY electrical work in your home is legally permitted..
BUT public buildings are NOT domestic dwellings and various other statutory laws do apply..
Which the HSE do get involved with in the event of person(s) being injured in a workplace..
https://www.hse.gov.uk/enforce/


Also.. Scout.Org.UK guidance from their website,
https://www.scouts.org.uk/volunteer...naging-contractors-working-on-scout-premises/
Offers a "Template Code Of Practice" for any contractors working on their sites..
https://view.officeapps.live.com/op...of-practice-june-2020.doc&wdOrigin=BROWSELINK

From which bullitt point 3.12 Electrical work states:-

All connections to Anytown Scout Group’s electrical supplies must be authorised by an electrical engineer or a designated representative (which will be arranged via the project manager/engineer). A fully-qualified competent electrician with adequate knowledge and experience must carry out this work.

All installations must conform to the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989, IEE Regulations latest edition (currently 17th Edition, 1st Amendment) and other accepted standards for connections to electrical systems, as well as the Construction Regulations, and all other guidance notes or codes of practice. All equipment must be suitable for the purpose and inspected on a regular basis, such as intrinsically safe equipment for potentially explosive atmospheres.

All temporary site electrical services should be isolated where possible before the contractors’ staff leave the premises.

A competent person must be appointed to be in charge of any electrical installation. Such a person must agree to accept full responsibility and their name and designation should be displayed close to the main switch or circuit breaker.

All portable electrical equipment brought onto site must be electrically tested and serviceable at all times. Each piece of equipment must be suitably marked.

Electrical supplies used on construction sites will not exceed 110V CTE with transformers situated as close to the source of supply as possible. Higher voltages can only be used with the agreement of the project manager/engineer.

So...
Unless you have some written document signed by a suitable person who can "over-rule" the Scout.Org.Uk guidance..
Then I would think you are just leaving yourself with a massive noose hanging round you neck waiting to be pulled tight!


P.S.
I was confused by this earlier bit:-
It's about 60 years old, and it look's like it's had a rewire once.

Are you saying it had a rewire about 60years ago? Or the building is 60years old.. but the wiring is less than 60years?
Confused.com?
 
No mention of what CSA the armoured 4 core is... ?
Bit like me saying I've found some T&E in the cellar can I use for my workshop?
I wasn't planning to go into all the details at this point. It's 2.5mm, more than enough to get lighting in the garage.

BS7671 covers ALL electrical installations, Domestic/Commercial/Industrial/Caravan site/Swimming pools/Medical locations etc.. etc.. etc... Fundamental principal are one and the same...

You still have got to verify condition & suitability of the earth arrangements, design all of your circuits to meet Earth loop impedance and disconnection times, suitable current capacities for installation methods etc etc..
Do the appropriate inspection & testing, document your results on an EIC, then sign the declaration that is complies with current BS7671.
Yes, I'm aware of all that.

Just curious why you haven't just read up a bit more stuff and contacted your mate with the megger?
I just though some people on here might be able to give me some good advice. As it happens, your subsequent advice about liability, etc, was the most useful advice. While I'm stilll confident that with enough work, learning and advice I can do a great job (both safe and compliant), I'm not happy with the legal side of things, so I'm going to recommend we get a qualified electrician to do the job instead. Thanks!
 
I just though some people on here might be able to give me some good advice. As it happens, your subsequent advice about liability, etc, was the most useful advice. While I'm stilll confident that with enough work, learning and advice I can do a great job (both safe and compliant), I'm not happy with the legal side of things, so I'm going to recommend we get a qualified electrician to do the job instead. Thanks!

I have to admit I am a bit gobsmacked and confused after you had previously said..
Read lots of stuff before I started, got pretty well versed in domestic wiring,

I just assumed that included reading the relevant sections of BS7671 wiring regulations?
Which right at the early pages in Part1 starts off with 'General Scope' and 'Relationship with Statutory Regulations'..

So I'm unclear how you were not aware of the liabilities related to working with an invisible substance that can kill a healthy adult in less than a second?
And, Googling the HSE or Scouts guidance is just as quick and easy as posting a question on a forum.

Unfortunately we do get far too many persons posting questions on here about work that is way out of their depth..
That they think they are competent at because they know how to join a few wires together.. to make something work...

Making electrical stuff work is easy..
It's ensuring that it fails safe so that you don't have to claim on your public liability insurance if the poop hits the fan that's more complicated!

Hopefully others may also read this thread to save us having to post similar replies again in a few months!
 
If your mate us a qualified sparky, perhaps you could get him to design the circuitry, supervise you doing the donkey work, and sign it off on completion.

To become an electrician is still a 4 year apprenticeship, you can learn an awful lot from reading and the internet, but that will never match 4 years training.
 
If your mate us a qualified sparky, perhaps you could get him to design the circuitry, supervise you doing the donkey work, and sign it off on completion.

To become an electrician is still a 4 year apprenticeship, you can learn an awful lot from reading and the internet, but that will never match 4 years training.
My friend hasn't been an electrician for a few years, so he couldn't do it. But, I've just discovered that one of our Scouts' parents is a fully qualified sparky! And he's willing to help with the rewire, so it can get done properly! Hooray!

I can totally understand why it would be a 4 year apprenticeship. When I was rewiring my house I lost count of the number of times I had to stop and look up how to do something or call up my ex-sparky friend. Even just the non-technical things like how to fish a wire, and someone who had done an apprenticeship would have done it a hundred times and known all the ways to make it easy, and I had to struggle for half a day on something that should have been simple! But I enjoyed it, and almost considered switching professions at the time.
 

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