Hi guys, have never really done any periodic inspection reports before and think it would be a useful attribute to add to my business. Obviously i have done testing and inspection whilst carrying out jobs but would like some advice on how to go about learning/teaching myself about the whole process of PIRs. I am awaiting my part p assessment so will hopefully be able to sign work off soon. Do i have to have 2391? Can you recommend any books, courses etc, that will set me up with the knowledge to carry out PIRs competently?
Starting PIRs
- Thread starter gordy71
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Help Support Talk Electrician Forum:
Have a look at the two posts re periodics. There is always doubt even to experienced sparks. The 2 pics were from Pirs done a couple of months back, so i am interested what others thought.
one of the main things I often come across in periodics(apart from the usual debate about codings) is knowing what is/isnt was/wasnt acceptable in any previous regs.
experience is invaluable in doing periodics,
old wooden wylex(for example) consumer units with 3036 fuses are still only code 4, provided of course that general condition is good,
I see lots of these coded 1 simply for not being 60898 or no RCD, even more so as the PFC is unsuitable even though it may be <1kA .
VIR/VRI cable is another one, or spider earth(or no earth at all even), perfectly acceptable(depending on condition and testing), but lots of people code these as 1 as well, at most merely a 4,
perfectly legal and to regs when it was installed.
experience is invaluable in doing periodics,
old wooden wylex(for example) consumer units with 3036 fuses are still only code 4, provided of course that general condition is good,
I see lots of these coded 1 simply for not being 60898 or no RCD, even more so as the PFC is unsuitable even though it may be <1kA .
VIR/VRI cable is another one, or spider earth(or no earth at all even), perfectly acceptable(depending on condition and testing), but lots of people code these as 1 as well, at most merely a 4,
perfectly legal and to regs when it was installed.
Steptoe - absolutely correct....BUT..... newly qualified are allowed to do PIR's (If suitably qualified) How on earth (excuse the pun) are they to know 15th or 16th in detail - this is an intrinsic problem with PIR - that an installation that complies with past regs is acceptable as long as it is safe. Hence the protracted debate on what items should be coded as what.
In an ideal world we would all have detailed knowledge of previous regs......in twenty years time there will be fewer and fewer left who have the knowledge but the installations will still exist which were built in the year dot!! How is a PIR to be done then?
By the way...I don't have the answer to this conundrum and have you tried to buy a copy of the 15th edition lately?!!
In an ideal world we would all have detailed knowledge of previous regs......in twenty years time there will be fewer and fewer left who have the knowledge but the installations will still exist which were built in the year dot!! How is a PIR to be done then?
By the way...I don't have the answer to this conundrum and have you tried to buy a copy of the 15th edition lately?!!
I agree to an extent SteveT , it is a very difficult area.
I dont know how to get around it,
Yes, newly qualified are allowed to do PIRs, but how would it stand up if something were to go wrong?
Competence = qualifications & experience . ?
Not wanting to get into that debate again, but perhaps its one of those areas that a newby would need to be shadowing a more experienced person for a while first, (?) .
I dont know how to get around it,
Yes, newly qualified are allowed to do PIRs, but how would it stand up if something were to go wrong?
Competence = qualifications & experience . ?
Not wanting to get into that debate again, but perhaps its one of those areas that a newby would need to be shadowing a more experienced person for a while first, (?) .
Its all down to experiance. I dont think you should do periodics untill you have either followed around an inspector or have been doing installations for a good few years
Now take Steptoes comment
Now take Steptoes comment
Thats not entirly correct. 90% of the time the fireproof backplate was never installed. If thats the case & the board is fixed to a non combustable surface (say a brick wall) then fine. If its fixed to say, a lathe & plaster wall then its a code 2.
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Very interesting issue.
Clearly, it is sensible to encourage qualified sparks to gain experience and training to enable them to carry out PIR`s in a competent and professional manner. The problem is that (since ANYONE can have a go at a PIR) until PIR`s are regulated in some manner the present farce will continue to the detriment of the consumer.
It is becoming ever clearer that current systems to protect the consumer are really just sales techniques by business interests within the Part P industry. When things DO go wrong the customer is usually left with little option but to sue the individual in question. A more robust system would protect both the public from rogue traders but also legitimate traders from rogue customers - but this would require individual licensing to sweep away the grey areas of corporate evasiveness, and the vested interests have too much to lose by such a system being adopted.
Clearly, it is sensible to encourage qualified sparks to gain experience and training to enable them to carry out PIR`s in a competent and professional manner. The problem is that (since ANYONE can have a go at a PIR) until PIR`s are regulated in some manner the present farce will continue to the detriment of the consumer.
It is becoming ever clearer that current systems to protect the consumer are really just sales techniques by business interests within the Part P industry. When things DO go wrong the customer is usually left with little option but to sue the individual in question. A more robust system would protect both the public from rogue traders but also legitimate traders from rogue customers - but this would require individual licensing to sweep away the grey areas of corporate evasiveness, and the vested interests have too much to lose by such a system being adopted.
Well noted,
My intention was they shouldn't be condemned simply because they are rewirable or have no kA rating stamped on, or simply cos they are old.
And that is why having a properly run forum with helpful older generation sparks, who are willing to impart some of their knowledge is a great help to those of us who have never worked to the 15th or older regs...... Thanks to you all.....
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15th? still got a 14th in my desk somewhere:coat
Ok so the general consensus is that experience is paramount when carrying out inspections, I have been in electrical trade for 5 years and am still learning every day but feel confident in my everyday work which is 80% domestic. I have a mate who i might be able to tag along with to get to grips with the process. So when carrying out PIRS the main thing is judging whether an installation is safe for continued use? So even if something once complied with regs, it has to be compared to todays standards, hence the codings? So if someone employs you to carry out an inspection, do you have the power to condemn circuits, equipment etc? I guess there are no black and white answers to a lot of situations and in an ideal world everything would need to comply with 17th but this just isnt practical. Where can these codings be found, GN3? Will have a look in a bit.
Quite correct.
It just shows how different people spot different things on inspections. I think i give good advise on my PIR's & could stand up to any questioning by other sparks. My 2 threads about toilets and gas pipes have had few proper replies, i will wait a while before i say what i coded them.
Hi,
Well I got my spurs on the 14th ed! I do a great deal of PIR work and I am often surprised and disappointed at 'previous' inspections particularly over coding. I do believe whilst younger sparks should be encouraged to do PIR work but with someone who has a lot of experience to help them. I think a good grounding in domestic house bashing is essential [not new work], a good understanding of the regs and 2391 very helpful. I don't have 2391 but I do know testing and i think what is important is a practical approach as to the purpose of testing.
Is the installation safe as far as i can tell? Are there issues which give rise to risk of shock or fire and how serious do i rate them? For example the old wooden backed Cu's, there is a 'potential' risk with fire rating but the greater risk is the absence of an RCD! So I don't get too excited by no brown sleeving on switchlines or CU's not marked up. Go have a good rummage under the kitchen units, look at DIY additions, look at the age and condition of the installation, understand your testing and be sensible in your risk assessment.
The Elec safety council have a good practice guide for PIR codes and examples...
Dunx
Well I got my spurs on the 14th ed! I do a great deal of PIR work and I am often surprised and disappointed at 'previous' inspections particularly over coding. I do believe whilst younger sparks should be encouraged to do PIR work but with someone who has a lot of experience to help them. I think a good grounding in domestic house bashing is essential [not new work], a good understanding of the regs and 2391 very helpful. I don't have 2391 but I do know testing and i think what is important is a practical approach as to the purpose of testing.
Is the installation safe as far as i can tell? Are there issues which give rise to risk of shock or fire and how serious do i rate them? For example the old wooden backed Cu's, there is a 'potential' risk with fire rating but the greater risk is the absence of an RCD! So I don't get too excited by no brown sleeving on switchlines or CU's not marked up. Go have a good rummage under the kitchen units, look at DIY additions, look at the age and condition of the installation, understand your testing and be sensible in your risk assessment.
The Elec safety council have a good practice guide for PIR codes and examples...
Dunx
Im almost certain that is available for a download.
---------- Post Auto-Merged at 19:05 ---------- Previous post was made at 19:01 ----------
I just had a look and I have a copy of PIR code recommendations on my computer if you cant find them online.
Doc Hudson
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Guidance Note 3, Guidance Note 3: Inspection and Testing Guidance Notes for Bs 7671: Amazon.co.uk: Jon Elliot: Books The ESC best practice guide PIR codes, http://www.niceic.com/Uploads/File1944.pdf. Other various books regarding PIR's, Amazon.co.uk: periodic inspection and testing: Books Any of these would probably make useful reading for anyone wanting a clearer understanding of the basics of PIR's
Doc H.
Doc H.
good linking doc,
I have just uploaded the PIR guide to the download section,
perhaps its now redundant,
Manator
©Honorary Essex Boy™
I have just carried out a PIR, the client was not happy with a recent inspection and asked me to have a look. Supply was a single phase (3) wire system TNS. Not very common and was supplied in years gone by in preference to 3 phase that was not required. Anyway I trangress, he would not show me his previous report, knowing another contractor had inspected I went through with a fine tooth comb, all fuses to all boards (4 Db's) were rewirable semi enclosed, as was the 60amp switch gear. There was 1 rcd in the whole place fitted 12 months ago for a new circuit extention. I found 2 code 2's, and I forget how many code 4's more than 15 I think, from memory. When I had finished he said " so it does not need a rewire then?", I said no, why? He then told me the previous contractor had put almost everything down as a code 1, this included the fuses, the switchgear and the fact that there was no RCD's. The lowest IR test result was 79 meg. I will never give a code 1 for no labels
no labels, code 2 at most, usually a 4 for me.
code 1 for me is immediate or likely to be a threat to life danger, ie, exposed wires, no earth, and of the top of my head cant think what else.
code 1 for me is immediate or likely to be a threat to life danger, ie, exposed wires, no earth, and of the top of my head cant think what else.
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