Your thoughts ladies & gentlemen please

[sparkymick]

I do same kind of work for semi retired sparky. When asked to certificate for him the first time I asked Napit what to do.They said could not give installation certificate if not on job from start to finish, would have to give Periodical cert. Have done so for last 3 years.

 

[Manator]

One major problem with Part P is the que of undervalued Part P sparks willing to sign a certificate for a few dollars, whilst the cowboys reap the benifits. If you can live with the "risk" then sign away. However know this, only a qualified electrician can hold court,and prove his credentials,sign off a builders job who is not concerned in any extra cost of a properly trained and approved electrician, in my veiw your asking for trouble. The fact that he is not using you from the start means he wants it done cheap, you and people like you are being used, and under reccession looks like it will happen more and more. Famous song title comming up, SAD BUT TRUE.(Mettalica) for those who wondered.

 

[ianmacd]

You could use a 3 part eic with your scam but you (or someone from your enterprise) would have had to sign all sections so you may as well just used the one part. As spin has said before (and as we have said on other threads many times before too), you can only self certify work that your enterprise has done (clue is in the name). Anything else, you can of course issue a 3 part EIC but you can not notify though your scam. Doing so is actually fraudulant.

If someone has installed work you are asked to take over and complete (or I&T) then you can only sign that section of an EIC and its up to the home owner to put in a regularisation application for unauthorised work with the LABC.

 

[Andy™]

However for self certification, I am reliably informed that only one is acceptable, that being the short one.

unless yourve been 'reliably informed' from something wrote in approved document P (point us to exactly where it says this), then you havent been 'reliably informed'

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

part or long form EICs cannot be used for self certification, they can only be used for 'pre' or in some cases, retrospective notification.

TOSH!

There is NOTHING preventing a company employing more than one person using various members of their staff to carry various aspects of some part-p notifiable work. Thus the company issues a 3 part EIC & self certifies the work on the customers behalf without the involvement of the LABC!

The approved document however does state that:"An electrical installation certificate can be issued only by the installer responsible for the installation work."

That is correct. 1.28 page 12 Approved Doc P

basically saying that third party certification is NOT permitted..

i.e. the scenario Scragg is asking about is NOT permitted within the formal guidance of Approved Doc P.

That aside, correct me if I'm wrong; to self certificate, you have to use the forms provided by your scheme operator.

As far as I'm aware, the scheme operators only issue a version of the short form EICs for this purpose?

TOSH..

An electrical contractor who has been deemed to be competent to sign and self certify his/her work by one of the approved bodies..

can issue any certificate he wishes provided it follows the essential information given in the model forms.

home made, wholesaler purchased, meter manufactures forms OR their scheme providers forms..

The NICEIC as far as I'm aware produce a number of certificates etc.However for self certification, I am reliably informed that only one is acceptable, that being the short one.

TOSH..

Page 10 approved document P

1.8 ...issue of the appropriate BS7671 electrical certificate

Then skip over to PAGE 25

Electrical Installation Certificate

Oh sod me...

Its a Three Part signatory form!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :O:innocent

Reliably informed....

My ar5e!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ]

Me thinks you need a better informer!



Back to the Original Question....

I would avoid it like the plauge...

Reasons..

ALL work I certify carries the 5 year insurance backed warranty...

which ALSO means I have an obligation to put right any none-compliances identified at a later date should a complaint / investigation ensue!

There is NO-WAY in a million years I am going to leave myself open to rectifying someone else's shortcuts at my own expense!

The more you do it the more you make a noose for your neck and its harder to establish yourself as a fully pukka reputable trader rather than a corner cutting cowboy!

Just do the job proper

OR...

share the job.. work together share the earnings 50/50,

be there while the cables are been concealed and run..

Do the second fixing...

you probably need to take some of it back off anyway to fully test out..

e.g. any dimmers LV trannies PIR lights etc...

AND you do the notification also as part of your 50/50 share of the work

Guinness

 

[spinlondon]

Specs' are you a painter by any chance? All this toshing.

I never said that the approved document did not allow you to issue a 3 part EIC.

I said that as far as I was aware, the scheme providors did not allow it.

My understanding, is that the scheme providors produced certificates for use when registering a job for Part P notification.

That these certificates were the only ones that they would accept, and that they followed the short EIC model form in BS7671.

If that's not the case, fine. If the sceme providors have changed their stance, fine.

As for being reliably informed, I am no more reliably informed by you than by anyone else.

 

[ianmacd]

I am not sure they have changed their stance spin, more that they do not advertise what they will accept in the hope you will pay them money for their own ones.

 

[safedepth]

I think that the biggest question raised here is the ultimate one.

Why has this question never before, (to my knowledge) been answered in full and unquestionable clarity by Building Control or the Government.

We seem to discuss this sort of issue on a fairly regular basis. We all have an opinion and most can provide reasonable argument to back it up but what we really need is clarity.

As a well respected and popular forum in the industry, is there any way we can lobby for a definitive answer from the relevant authorities?

 

[spinlondon]

I actually belive it is quite simple. Either pre-notify, or employ a Part P registered person.

The problems occur when you get people as in the OP's case who are trying to pull a fast one.

You probabally do get the odd occasion where the sparks has ******** off, or as I recall in one thread the sparks passed away.

In such instances, the only recourse is to contact the LABC and comply with whatever they require for a completion certificate to be issued.

 

[Manator]

I think that the biggest question raised here is the ultimate one.Why has this question never before, (to my knowledge) been answered in full and unquestionable clarity by Building Control or the Government.

We seem to discuss this sort of issue on a fairly regular basis. We all have an opinion and most can provide reasonable argument to back it up but what we really need is clarity.

As a well respected and popular forum in the industry, is there any way we can lobby for a definitive answer from the relevant authorities?

If the question is " Can a 3 part certificate be refused by a LABC?" The answer is no.

3 part EIC's were never intended for DI use, which is why most certificates issued via scheme providers for their DI's are single signature. Large installs can have 3 seperate contractors doing the work, the design being carried out by a dedicated firm of engineers, the install by a subcontracted installation company, and the testing by a company appointed by the designers. I would not be happy for instance if I had to design a supply and distribution network for a 12 acre site, do the install, and test at the end, I know my limits and area of expertise. However 200 new houses on an estate, no problem, or a new factory or industrial unit again no problem.

Whilst 3 part EIC's are not intended for domestics, there can be no refusal from the LABC to refuse them, I personally do not think they should be used, based on the fact that the work and system will be open to abuse, builders will install, and get a hard up desperate for work DI to sign it off.

 

[safedepth]

Sorry, I wasn't referring to the 3 part eic. It was when can someone sign for anothers work. There must be a definitive answer. Surely.

 

[Sidewinder]

Safe,

In certain respects yes in others no!

The answer is "it depends"!!!

 

[safedepth]

Safe,In certain respects yes in others no!

The answer is "it depends"!!!

That's the sort of clear and concise answer I was looking for!

Are you a politician?

 

[steptoe]

there is a definitive answer IMO,

you are NOT allowed to sign off a 3rd parties work.

this does not include work where you have been a supervisor, as in that case you have been a party to said works.

 

[Sidewinder]

It depends on the scanario whether you can sign off someone elses work.

Steps as I understand things, does it all the time, legitimiately, I hasten to add!

 

[steptoe]

It depends on the scanario whether you can sign off someone elses work.Steps as I understand things, does it all the time, legitimiately, I hasten to add!

correctomundo

 

[safedepth]

there is a definitive answer IMO,you are NOT allowed to sign off a 3rd parties work.

this does not include work where you have been a supervisor, as in that case you have been a party to said works.

This is my point. Whilst I agree with what you say this is your opinion and not a legally binding judgement. We should not be having to justify what we do. The op asked a question which should have a definitive answer, not just our opinions.

Interesting discussion point I think.

 

[ianmacd]

Again. Clue is in the name. Self Certified. Not sure how many times it can be said or in how many different ways before people understand what self means.

 

[NozSpark]

Safedepth,,

I think you'll find that it's not a legal issue,, it's part of the terms of membership of the scams that we belong to that we don't sign off other peoples work (you are allowed to sign of work that you have supervised, you're just not allowed to sign off 3 party work that all you've done is tested)... if they found out I'm sure that there would be consequences

 

[steptoe]

Safedepth,,I think you'll find that it's not a legal issue,, it's part of the terms of membership of the scams that we belong to that we don't sign off other peoples work... if they found out I'm sure that there would be consequences

its not other peoples work you are not allowed to sign off,

its 3rd parties work you are not permitted to sign off,

there is a massive difference in you signing off work you have personally done,

signing off work someone else has done but you have supervised,

or signing off work a 3rd party has done and you have simply tested.

this signing off others peoples work is a big red herring that needs to be cleared up.

you are allowed to sign off other peoples work as long as certain conditions are met.

you are NOT allowed to sign off a 3rd parties work under any circumstances.