Your thoughts ladies & gentlemen please

[NozSpark]

:coat

that's what I mean't,,, will edit post accordingly

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all done now!

 

[ianmacd]

you are NOT allowed to sign off a 3rd parties work under any circumstances.

As per sections 1.28 and 1.29 of ADP

 

[steptoe]

but you are allowed to sign off someone elses work.!

as long as certain conditions are met.!

 

[ianmacd]

but you are allowed to sign off someone elses work.!as long as certain conditions are met.!

You are not allowed so sign anyone else's work off. If someone is acting in a QS function within an enterprise then they can sign off another's install within the same enterprise in addition to the installer signing the same part of the document too.

 

[spinlondon]

Actually, the person responsible for whichever aspect of the work requires signing off, can sign.

Don't have to be a QS.

 

[ianmacd]

Actually, the person responsible for whichever aspect of the work requires signing off, can sign.Don't have to be a QS.

But if a QS is also responsible for that part both should sign it.

 

[spinlondon]

If a QS is signing then a QS is signing.

However there is no requirement for any part to be signed by specifically a QS.

The requirement is for whomever is responsible for whichever aspect requires signing to sign

 

[steptoe]

You are not allowed so sign anyone else's work off. If someone is acting in a QS function within an enterprise then they can sign off another's install within the same enterprise in addition to the installer signing the same part of the document too.

wrong.!

you do not have to be a QS to do the I&T on a job you have supervised, you can be the electrical foreman or supervisor, but you "may" or "may not" be the "qualified" supervisor who will then countersign the work after he is satisfied the work is to the standard required.

the bottom line is the rules permit you to sign off A.N. Others work, this is something that needs to be gotten of of some peoples mind,

someone else does NOT always mean a 3rd party .

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If a QS is signing then a QS is signing.However there is no requirement for any part to be signed by specifically a QS.

The requirement is for whomever is responsible for whichever aspect requires signing to sign

there is for NICEIC AC , dont know about DI.

 

[spinlondon]

Sorry Steps, I'm refering to the requirements of BS7671, but would a QS sign for the design if the design was by some other company?

 

[ianmacd]

This is OT anyway as we are now discussing EIC's rather than Building Compliance Certs which I believe we all agree can not be done for anyone outside of your enterprise (a.k.a. 3rd Parties).

 

[steptoe]

no,

if you are talking about a 3part cert then surely then you should know that the designer signs his part,

the installer signs his part,

the tester signs his part,

and the QS signs to say the results notifications as recorded on the cert are satisfactory and meets BS7671 within the limitations he is granted by the use of a 3 part cert,

a 3part cert does not always carry 3 signatures, but when it does it may/or may not limit the responsibilities held by the QS on that cert.

 

[NozSpark]

The QS has to countersign for NICEIC DI as well..

as a QS you are only signing that you are happy with the results,, and that you trust the people who have carried out the work (in the company's employ) to have done it correctly

 

[spinlondon]

Steps, I don't particuarly want to get bogged down in fine details as to what the NICEIC require.

I am not a member of any scheme as I don't as a rule do housebashing.

The domestic work I get involved in is in the main new builds, where 3 part EICs, planning permission and pre-notification is the norm.

BS7671 requires the person or persons responsible for whatever aspect of the work to sign a declarartion.

There is no requirement for that person or persons to be a QS, BS or any other kind of S.

Such persons could be a site foreman, a charge hand, a sub contractor, whatever.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

the bottom line is the rules permit you to sign off A.N. Others work, this is something that needs to be gotten of of some peoples mind,someone else does NOT always mean a 3rd party.

Indeed!

With reference to this QS countersigning other person work.. and specifically just in case any members are getting confused, or thinking on cross purposes... lets just explode some of the............

"THE MYTHS OF THE SINGLE SIGNATORY CERTIFICATE":-

Looking at the evidence and considering a few facts to help :-

a) Page 332 BS7671 The standard all purpose all singing and dancing EIC..

also seen on Page 143 of On-Site-Guide.

also know as 'Standard form F2'

This has the following;

2 x Signatory lines for Design

1 x Signatory lines for Construction

1 x Signatory lines for I&T

Then on Page 333, (145 O.S.G.), it has

4 x Company names & address boxes for each of the respetive persons.

So FACT 1: this model certificate quite reasonably assumes that 4 independant persons, for 4 independant companies could be involved in the same installtion work project signing thier respective elements of work.

As far as BS7671 is concerned this certificate could be used for ANY and ALL types of electrical installtion however big or small!

B) Where a single contractor does all of these aspects of work the Short form F1 can be used.

See page 137 On-Site-Guide.

c) Minor works would generally be considerd to be carried out by a single person..

Page 335 BS7671 or Page 150 OSG

This only has one signatory for Design, Construction, I&T.

d) The PIR forms also only have a single signatory..

Page 337 BS7671 or Page 152 OSG.

So thats all clear then....

ONLY the standard form F2 has the multiple signatory boxes when you could possibly have multiple parties involved in the same contract..

OR IS IT???????????????????

What about the Scheme providers own certificates....

Specifically in relation to the Part P compliance aspect...

e) An NICEIC DI standard EIC has ... As Noz also pointed out...

TWO signatory boxes...

1 x Signature of the person doing the Design, Construction, I&T

1 x Signature of the QS verifying that the above persons results have been reviewed as satisfactory.

f) and even an NICEIC DI Minor Works certificate has ...

TWO signatory boxes...

1 x Signature of the person doing the Design, Construction, I&T

1 x Signature of the QS verifying that the above persons results have been reviewed as satisfactory.

SO even the NICEIC DI 'EIC' and 'MWC' assume that the posiblity that the person doing the work is NOT the QS who has been appraised as competent by the NICEIC assesment process..

BUT they would be part of the same small enterprise.

So as Steptoe & Noz have pointed out..

Countersigning someone elses work is NOT the same as countersigning 3rd party work.

So back to the original point if the elder spark was working for Scragg

then this other spark even though not assesed as competent by an approved contractor scheme, could do the work, test & sign his bit and scragg countersign and notify the work....

BUT..

if the elderly spark is not working for Scragg then technically he is a 3rd party and scragg cannot sign his work off!

:Salute :coffee

 

[scrag]

Sorry chaps. I gota agree and disagree with alot of the comments and feel that I have started something that has a lot of views, wrongly or rightly.

I strongly feel THAT, if you are willing to accept that the Installation complies and you are willing to take responsibility then sign it off. Simple, simple as that.

I strongly feel that we live in a namby pamby state. Nobody is able or they are to scared to be responsible for their actions.

This is a very interesting forum with for and against views all of which are valid. Clarity is what is required and common sence.

All H and S want and the legal system want is paper trail to prosecute if something fatal happens. We as a group and a grouP of professionals as some have suggested should all get tobad day explodegether and lobby, strike,insist,demand,write,disagree,debate to find q way forward. I've said before and it is very true.

Rules and regulations are for the blind obedience of fools and the guide ce of wise men.

I used to be the former but will not be pushed, bullied or threatened anymore. I work in a proffesional manor and need to feed my kidz. Go on coarses pay my scam fees and taxes and everything else.

If I could do it again I would be plasterer,chippy etc etc. Same hard work, same money but less overheads and less responsibility. I wanna out of this trade but have a young family and cannot afford too.

 

[ianmacd]

When you get caught, its unlikely you will be allowed to join a scam again.

 

[steptoe]

Sorry chaps. I gota agree and disagree with alot of the comments and feel that I have started something that has a lot of views, wrongly or rightly. I strongly feel THAT, if you are willing to accept that the Installation complies and you are willing to take responsibility then sign it off. Simple, simple as that.

I strongly feel that we live in a namby pamby state. Nobody is able or they are to scared to be responsible for their actions.

This is a very interesting forum with for and against views all of which are valid. Clarity is what is required and common sence.

All H and S want and the legal system want is paper trail to prosecute if something fatal happens. We as a group and a grouP of professionals as some have suggested should all get tobad day explodegether and lobby, strike,insist,demand,write,disagree,debate to find q way forward. I've said before and it is very true.

Rules and regulations are for the blind obedience of fools and the guide ce of wise men.

I used to be the former but will not be pushed, bullied or threatened anymore. I work in a proffesional manor and need to feed my kidz. Go on coarses pay my scam fees and taxes and everything else.

If I could do it again I would be plasterer,chippy etc etc. Same hard work, same money but less overheads and less responsibility. I wanna out of this trade but have a young family and cannot afford too.

scragg what it boils down to is would you make this guy rip it out and do it again if you were not happy with his work?

I have had to do this on occasion with some of our guys, both employed and subbies,

they soon get to learn that I will NOT sign for work I dont deem to be of a satisfactory level,

I dont mean just on paper, but even to the extent of sockets in a kitchen not being 1060 from FFL.

if I wouldnt have it in my house then its not a good job,

its not just about numbers,

its about pride in the job and being a spark is much more than a bit of paper.

 

[Manator]

To be honest I think what scragg is refering to is the fact that every tom dick and harry is doing electrical works without register, and the only way he is now forced to earn a living is to sign off others work.

I do feel sorry for him and people like him, when faced with placing bread on the table I can not blame him, I blame the government for an ill advised and policed law. I do not condone it, but I must admit with the reccesion hitting home, it looks like more and more DI's will be forced to do the same.

 

[safedepth]

Many things in this country are over supervised and controlled, is this one of those areas? So long as people (we), don't have definitive answer to these questions I feel we still have enough room for further directives. Put simply, we need a definitive answer. One which takes opinion out of it. We can then at least all sing from the same hymn sheet.

 

[steptoe]

To be honest I think what scragg is refering to is the fact that every tom dick and harry is doing electrical works without register, and the only way he is now forced to earn a living is to sign off others work.I do feel sorry for him and people like him, when faced with placing bread on the table I can not blame him, I blame the government for an ill advised and policed law. I do not condone it, but I must admit with the reccesion hitting home, it looks like more and more DI's will be forced to do the same.

I can have some sympathy, but not a lot,

perhaps if he started reporting some of these cowboys then perhaps himself along with many other properly qualified and bona-fide paid up members might get some of the work for a sensible price.

we all need to feed our families,

but at what cost?

will he next be signing off work where the plumber has put a new CU in, or the housholders little brother cos he done computer science at school.?

where does it end.?