5 week wonder, urban myth?

[Theorysparky]

TheorysparkMost of my work is little old ladies. But what i dont agree with is somebody with no elctrical knowledge doing a 5w course joining a scheme and going out there to change the little old ladies socket and not doing it correctly .if the requirments to join a scheme were higher then this would hopefully increase the standard.

cowboy jack comes under that banner aswell

he can get everything he needs from diy shops

so its not just the 5WW

bear in mind most of the guys on these courses come straight from a desk shufflin' their pens

 

[Smilers]

Perhaps the course content it the problem ? Even though motors etc are part of the syllabus I didn't really get any experience of motors during my apprenticeship since the company I worked for carried out mainly small commercial,domestic and maintenance !

I have met people that work purely industrial who admitted that if they were put in front of a domestic require they would be lost!! The subject is just to vast to be competent in every area! Perhaps after 50 years and a varied career you may be sufficient but your body would be to knackered to get out the van let alone anything else.

Perhaps the term electrician is to general and the physics, theory and H&S side should be a basic Qual then you train in more detail a form of specialism eg - domestic with the appropriate cert with combined 50/50 theory practical split! But until the training providers improve the courses and the ensure experience standards improve nothing will change- this debate will never have a satisfactory outcome and I don't think that the problem of shoddy workmanship lays at the feet of 5wws but at the feet of tradesmen with poor standards be that 5wws or time served!!

 

[revjames]

Perhaps the course content it the problem ? Even though motors etc are part of the syllabus I didn't really get any experience of motors during my apprenticeship since the company I worked for carried out mainly small commercial,domestic and maintenance !I have met people that work purely industrial who admitted that if they were put in front of a domestic require they would be lost!! The subject is just to vast to be competent in every area! Perhaps after 50 years and a varied career you may be sufficient but your body would be to knackered to get out the van let alone anything else.

I did my apprenticeship in hot metal industry followed by a spell in quarrying. I then went straight into domestic..... its not rocket science.. try doing it the other way round though

Too knackered to get out of the van? nah too knackered to get out of the mess room though

 

[PC Electrics]

There's so much I could say in response to so many of the threads on here, but frankly I can't be bothered typing it all out. I've got better things to do running a successful Domestic Installers business (this will be my best year yet!).

But here's something to ponder (that is, if some of you can rest that massive chip somewhere to relieve the shoulder pain and allow your brain to think properly for a few minutes):

I'm a 5WW (your definition, not mine)

I employ an apprentice!

Yes, an apprentice, who's doing 2330 at college.

He's been with me a year.

So in two years time he'll be a "proper electrician" with his 2330 and NVQ3.

Yet I'll still be a 5WW!!

 

[ProDave]

In response to PC electrics post, I think it can be summed up simply:

Those with PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE and the theoretical knowledge do the job well.

Those that know the theory but have little experience can struggle, and without guidance can make a right b@lls up when they are not sure how to do something.

 

[Chr!s]

In response to PC electrics post, I think it can be summed up simply:Those with PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE do the job well.

Those that know the theory but have little experience can struggle, and without guidance can make a right b@lls up when they are not sure how to do something.

Dave for sure those with practical experience do the job well visually, though if you lack theory you will not get much further than installing standard circuits.

I know a NIC AC, fitted a new cu, RCD kept tripping so he removed it, system was TT.

Now hes been a sparky for 30 years and practically hes fantastic, gets it done fast and neat, theoretically he lacks big time. When i mentioned it to him his reply was," never really worked on TT".

It Goes both ways, id rather have some one with the technical knowledge, who knows how to design and test albeit a little slow and not as neat at the practical.

 

[NozSpark]

I've kept out of this up to now as there are so many levels of 5WWs,,, as there are indentured tradesmen - there are god awful ones and brilliant ones (in both categories)

The main problem lies in the training courses/providers which imply that they can turn a desk jockey (with no prior experience) into an electrician in 5 weeks or so.

There are many of us here who didn't have an electrical apprenticeship (me included) and came into this proffesion for different reasons and from different backgrounds, most of us could teach some of the other well thought of guys (and girls) on here a thing or two,,, and that will go the other way also.

I think the type of person we are classing as a 5WW is really someone who doesn't know their limitations and will carry on regardless without accepting that they need help or advice from others. Many of he people who have done these courses however unfortunately due to their lack of experience don't realise that they have massive gaps in the knowledge and skills that they require because they know no better.

 

[Theorysparky]

I better change my name then

When i first started i had very little practical experience

5 years on i have more than enough practical experience for my domestic work

but........

i realised not long after i started that my theory was not great

still got lots to learn so a name change might be in order !!!!!

and plus the fact i have not got a jib card so i cant call myself a sparky

its not looking too good people....

 

[Manator]

I think once again this thread has been useful, and shown that assumptions are indeed often misplaced. We have had these discussions before, and no doubt will have them in the future. This thread has now run its usefulness, and I thank all posters who replied, I would especially like to thank Theorysparky and PC Electrics, both of them have given us more food for thought and have stood up for their right to be acknowledged as electricians, I personaly have respect for anyone who can stand toe to toe and defend their position.

There is still and always will be snobbery within this trade, I have yet to meet an electrician who does not think he is better than me, never mind how you came into the industry. Its all down to knowing what you can and can not do, I do not do domestics, but have for many years been registered with the NICEIC has a domestic installer, it helps when I do commercial properties which are multi used buildings. I could train an electrician, time served or 5WW, in a day or so to do what I do, but I would always try to dissuade them saying its far to difficult and nothing like BS7671.

Reading through the thread reminds me of how I first reacted to the news that people could do a few weeks course and become electricians, however when you talk to people like PC Electrics, and Theorysparky you begin to realise that there is a place for these people, and they have individually shown on far too many occasions to be equal to electricians just like me.

With reference to 3 phase and JIB cards, all I can say is that 3 phase is not difficult I indeed prefer it as a distribution supply, and find it my prefered feild of working, but can easily work with single phase supplies, limited has they are. I had JIB card in fact I had two, one was for my normal trade classification as an approved electrician, and because of a job I had I had a gold managers card, which I never re applied for, I have not held a card for years, but it does not stop me from having design meetings with electrical engineers and CIBSE engineers, and I am classed as their equal. If I had Theorysparky or PC Electrics with me for a week I bet I could put any one of them into a meeting and they would stillbe equal to these engineers.

The only time anyone should get on their high horse, is when they become aware of workmanship that is poor, be it from a 5WW or a time served electrician. Just has its been pointed out, there are good and bad in all. As for comments on how 5WW could only install parrot fashion cables, so to speak, I doubt some do, but I also suspect that some know exactly why they install them, and can do the verification calculations to make sure its right. As for 5WW not knowing how to decipher test results, I suspect some do not, but a larger part of them know exactly how to do this.

Experiance is the key, and its taken me a long long time to know whats what without looking at a book, eventually with experiance comes complatency, again I have been a victim of this and still bear the really bad scars to prove it. ( Previous post about my electric shock).

To finish off, thanks again to PC Electrics and Theorysparky for providing proof that some so called 5WW are indeed justified electricians.

 

[Theorysparky]

Firstly i didnt know PC Electrics was a 5WW !!!!!!!

having met him last year !!!!!

I would suspect that a lot of the registered members on this forum who havnt posted are short course people and after reading this thread are not likely to

Everyone on here has an opinion on us 5WW and after reading some of these posts its quite clear some are boxing above their weight.

i dont see anything changing in the future,,,,,,it may need to when a disaster happens and its down to a short course sparky

Thanks to the moderators letting this thread run even though it did get heated at times..

Point to ponder

with all these 5WW people out there why is it the public say ' i can never find an electrician'

what would it be like if us 5WW were not about ????

oh thats right they would be trying to get hold of you 'Heavies' that are too busy to do domestic !!!!!!

 

[green-hornet]

Oh another meaty discussion, my thoughts? There are some really really bad 5WW's.

Just like the cowboys we see every day, but there are some really really awful ac's as well. I am afraid I have to agree with Manator, it does show when you meet someone or speak to them. As for Theorysparky I had no idea you was a so called 5WW, you have actively added to the knowledge base of this forum for years, if anyone tells you different show them in my direction. I am time served, but by no means better than others, even though I always think I am, but thats just electricians in general, in fact working on sites I do not think any other trade acts the way we do.

Top and bottom of it is, if your bad your bad, it does not matter how you were trained.

 

[Guy]

Well I got my answer, definatly not a myth, but a beautiful story full of many twists and turns

 

[Theorysparky]

you can turn the light off now ,turn over and go to sleep knowing your not alone !!!!

 

[Manator]

On that note I think I am justified to close this thread, no input could be constructive, and it only goes to show how wrong we can be.

 

[Guy]

:good night:

 

[PC Electrics]

Thanks for the kind words Manator and others.

I'd like to add a few thoughts:

I agree with Steps that there is cause for concern that the short course / scheme regime appears to be letting in people who have little aptitude for our trade.

However, this is not a new problem. There have always been plenty of untrained electricians out there, usually known as builders, kitchen fitters etc etc. At least they now have to undergo some training (even if some providers do cheat the results)

Personally, I have a high level of aptitude for this game because I come from an engineering background. Both my grandfathers were engineers. With maths & physics O and A levels and a BSc(Hons) in mechanical engineering, I understand the most of the engineering behind the regulations. The degree course even had an electrical module. I used to be ChEng, MIMechE when I was in the auto industry.

I came from an industry that is highly regulated - automotive R&D. Believe me, FMVSS208 (US head impact protection legislation - which I designed and engineered the upper environment of the 03 Jag XJ to meet) makes BS7671 look like light bedtime reading. So doing a course to understand the requirements of BS7671 was fairly easy for me. Yes, I am good at passing exams - that's because I understand the material! I help my appy with his homework most weeks.

If 2330 was available as an intensive course, I bet I could pass it with flying colours.

When I started out I understood my limitations: that's why I have stuck to domestic and small commercial work. But even this requires a reasonable understanding of the design process, eg when putting in distribution ccts to outbuildings or long radials to a hot tub. Having done a module on control systems as part of my degree, central heating control is a doddle so I've specialised in that (recently done my first full ASHP / underfloor system - worked perfectly first time the NuHeat engineer fired it up).

I employed an apprentice partly because I need the help. But also because I hope he can bring new learning and skills into my business. For example he's been learning galv conduit recently - I've never done any.

What I'm getting at is there are those such as myself and Theo, who have the background and only need 'top up' training to be good at what we do. We can make a valuable contribution to this industry.

Then there are those who have been 'electricians' all their lives who haven't a clue, for one reason or another.

If people could put away their petty prejudices and jealousy, then maybe we could focus on what really matters - bad electricians and the outright cowboys.

It should be about competence, not how you arived here.

I also dislike the term 5 week wonder. My experience is that it is a derogatory term, especially when used to your face. I for one, did not amass a brain full of knowledge in just five weeks. It's taken most of a lifetime in fact! And it's still filling up every day.