Another reason to avoid Smart!

[roys]

The other thing that gets overlooked is that oil and gas is the base product for more things than just power generation and internal combustion engines.
For example all the vegan plastic shoes that the green protesters are bound to be wearing is made from ethylene gas from the North Sea, in fact most of the plastics we use in everyday lives from our specs, polybags, plastic dashboards in our cars, plastic battery cases, plastic insulation on cables, all made from oil and gas products.
What are we going to do, go back to using horses hoofs for glue, bone China, ivory chess pieces, we need oil and gas.
Yes we need change, we don’t all need to fly on holiday all the time, or fly our politions to conferences round the world, we don’t need to put bananas in plastic single use plastic bags in supermarkets, the change has to be managed.

 

[shaunuk]

I’m all for smart meters, how can more data and more accurate readings that are automatic ever be a bad thing ? If people feel ripped off, they just need to consult the data from their smart meter. Energy suppliers are not ripping people off when they ask for more money, they are simply trying to stop the customer from building up a huge debt over the winter.

People suggesting blocking the meter are living in a dream world, what good can that do.

The meter records the units consumed. Those units are multiplied by the rate. The total is the bill. It’s stuff my 6 year old covered last year in first year.

A much worse scenario would be relying on the customer to supply readings, then the suppliers going into an environment of 500% increase on supply prices or more and being forced to estimate a bill going into the hardest winter period we have faced in my living memory.

More data is what we need.

 

[Donnie76]

As one of the sceptics who is resisting as long as I can:
Looking purely at the technical aspects you are correct in saying there CAN be advantages on both sides.
However, I don't have your need for sophisticated micro-generation system; I just have a simple system paying me a good FIT.

One of the main things which puts me off is the sheer dishonesty of their marketing campaign. Basically it claims that a SM will save you money on your energy. That is untrue unless you choose to change your habits to use less energy, - which you can equally do without SM.
There is further dishonesty in what is NOT freely promoted. The ability for remote disconnection and longer term plan for variable tariffs.
This devious approach makes me wonder what else is being concealed? _ Well unchallenged switching to prepay is obviously one thing. How secure is the control from either accidental or malicious interference? What redress do I have if I am disconnected for any reason?
Why should I take (any) risk when my present meter is totally adequate?
As the advantage to me is absolutely minimal, I choose to walk away, just as I would from a suspect car dealership.

Spot on

 

[Mike.J]

Trouble with tidal schemes is the best places tend to be areas with extensive mud flats, which are important feeding grounds for many bird species. So our feathered friends lose feeding time as the mud stays covered in water.

That could be compensated for with extensive expansion of salt water marsh elsewhere.

Just a thought, if the mud flats stay covered in water does that not indicate that the tidal flow is not being utilised to its full extent?

We already have a Thames barrier that can be closed off in segments, one closed and a coffer dam behind it could then have a generator installed, do this two or three times and we have a viable electricity supply without the massive expense of a new infrastructure, I have put this to my MP who said they would ask the question in the house, no reply after two months so far.

 

[Murdoch]

We don't have SM's but the daughters uni house does, so I've just added the Loop App to my phone so I can help her and her house mates understand their usage - from my initial thoughts its a decent app and very importantly it appears to link to the meter, not the supplier so if you change suppliers it means you can see your historic usage too

 

[ProDave]

I’m all for smart meters, how can more data and more accurate readings that are automatic ever be a bad thing ? If people feel ripped off, they just need to consult the data from their smart meter. Energy suppliers are not ripping people off when they ask for more money, they are simply trying to stop the customer from building up a huge debt over the winter.

People suggesting blocking the meter are living in a dream world, what good can that do.

The meter records the units consumed. Those units are multiplied by the rate. The total is the bill. It’s stuff my 6 year old covered last year in first year.

If that was ALL smart meters did, people would not be so against them. but reading various forums, there are plenty of customers with smart meters still getting silly bills and still being forced to pay silly amounts each month.

But the simple "units used X unit price" is just as possible with a normal meter. I give my supplier a reading at the end of each month from my non smart meter and it takes a minute or 2 and I always get a correct bill.

It is all the things smart meters can do that they don't tell you that we object to,

 

[BorisJ]

and if the politicians are so eager to reduce consumption, why are kids still allowed to go to any school , creating a huge amount of unnecessary car journeys every day?

There is no need for kids to be taken to school by car where ever the school is.

 

[Geoff1946]

There is no need for kids to be taken to school by car where ever the school is.

Not everyone has good transport links or schools close by.
My primary school involved a train journey and a half mile walk at each end. Secondary school was a walk, a train then a bus.
Those public transport links have now been cut so anyone living where I was would almost certainly go by car now.

 

[johnb2713]

We don't have SM's but the daughters uni house does, so I've just added the Loop App to my phone so I can help her and her house mates understand their usage - from my initial thoughts its a decent app and very importantly it appears to link to the meter, not the supplier so if you change suppliers it means you can see your historic usage too

It doesnt work with dual rates or smart tariffs unfortunately.

 

[Geoff1946]

Perhaps you can help me here.
As you may realise from my other postings I don't have a smart meter, and hence don't know the details of operating one.
I DID advise a relative to have one, simply because their meter is really awkwardly located and access involves emptying the pantry then crawling under the stairs.
Due to one of them recently passing on I have now assumed responsibility for looking after the practicalities of running the house. If they ever had a remote indicator device I certainly wouldn't know where to find it now.
Do I gather that there is a way of accessing a meter from my phone? Any pointer would be appreciated.

 

[johnb2713]

Perhaps you can help me here.
As you may realise from my other postings I don't have a smart meter, and hence don't know the details of operating one.
I DID advise a relative to have one, simply because their meter is really awkwardly located and access involves emptying the pantry then crawling under the stairs.
Due to one of them recently passing on I have now assumed responsibility for looking after the practicalities of running the house. If they ever had a remote indicator device I certainly wouldn't know where to find it now.
Do I gather that there is a way of accessing a meter from my phone? Any pointer would be appreciated.

Yes, loop app can do it.

https://loop.homes/cut-your-impact/...uiwebbTdYRnbAcnOhVoJXWPihLDRPkcsaAgaJEALw_wcB

 

[shaunuk]

It doesnt work with dual rates or smart tariffs unfortunately.

Im with Edf for the 4.5p night tariff (home battery and car charging wizardry), loop does not work with time of use tariffs, but Bright app does. Same as loop, but better because its not trying to sell you solar all the time

 

[shaunuk]

As one of the sceptics who is resisting as long as I can:
Looking purely at the technical aspects you are correct in saying there CAN be advantages on both sides.
However, I don't have your need for sophisticated micro-generation system; I just have a simple system paying me a good FIT.

One of the main things which puts me off is the sheer dishonesty of their marketing campaign. Basically it claims that a SM will save you money on your energy. That is untrue unless you choose to change your habits to use less energy, - which you can equally do without SM.
There is further dishonesty in what is NOT freely promoted. The ability for remote disconnection and longer term plan for variable tariffs.
This devious approach makes me wonder what else is being concealed? _ Well unchallenged switching to prepay is obviously one thing. How secure is the control from either accidental or malicious interference? What redress do I have if I am disconnected for any reason?
Why should I take (any) risk when my present meter is totally adequate?
As the advantage to me is absolutely minimal, I choose to walk away, just as I would from a suspect car dealership.

Hi Geoff,

They have had some bad press, making the scepticism understandable, this is common with new technologies. I come across it a lot, partially from the 'dont pay uk' crowd.
A few thoughts below:

One of the main things which puts me off is the sheer dishonesty of their marketing campaign. Basically it claims that a SM will save you money on your energy. That is untrue unless you choose to change your habits to use less energy, - which you can equally do without SM.

Having one big number to report back to the energy bill company every month or so is not empowering the home owner to notice which devices are using the most energy. Having a free in home display with live data whenever the dryer on is amazing. Even my wife now can see that the dryer was costing more than everything else combined and has changed her habits.

There is further dishonesty in what is NOT freely promoted. The ability for remote disconnection and longer term plan for variable tariffs.
This devious approach makes me wonder what else is being concealed?

This is possibly one of the best inventions, and there is no direct cost for it, time of use tariffs are a game changer for making the grid cleaner, saving energy and allowing metered export with out even needing a call out. They just apply the export meter remotely via software.

I dont know if they do disconnect people remotely, but if they did, surely thats a good thing ? If people take energy with out paying for it, thats theft and being able to, or having the ability to disconnect would discourage the theft. It would also save the rest of us bill payers money.

Well unchallenged switching to prepay is obviously one thing.

Again, if some one doesn't pay, and some one can flick a switch to move a bad customer to pre pay... Well thats perfect as well, reduces theft, encourages responsible consumption.

How secure is the control from either accidental or malicious interference? What redress do I have if I am disconnected for any reason?

Ive never had a problem with being disconnected, and ive never heard of anyone being disconnected because of a hack, the network seems secure based on the attempts (and failure) of nerds to stream live consumption data from their meters with out an official bit of kit.

Why should I take (any) risk when my present meter is totally adequate?
As the advantage to me is absolutely minimal, I choose to walk away, just as I would from a suspect car dealership.

There is no advantage, until there is an advantage. Wouldent walking round the house with the in home display and turning things on and off be advantageous ? Not having to provide meter readings periodically because the provider get those automatically every 30 minutes and having perfectly accurate bills for every hour that passes. Would plugging in a battery to your house and charging it up at 4.5p over night and discharging into the house during the day and effectivity not paying the 34p p/kWh be an advantage ?

Im firmly on the other side of the fence, i'm happy to debate these issues in the interest of furthering the common good and correcting misunderstandings.

We have to move forward, the grid needs to be cleaner, educating consumers and getting smart meters out there are a huge part of this.

 

[Geoff1946]

Hi Geoff,

They have had some bad press, making the scepticism understandable, this is common with new technologies. I come across it a lot, partially from the 'dont pay uk' crowd.
A few thoughts below:


Having one big number to report back to the energy bill company every month or so is not empowering the home owner to notice which devices are using the most energy. Having a free in home display with live data whenever the dryer on is amazing. Even my wife now can see that the dryer was costing more than everything else combined and has changed her habits.

This is possibly one of the best inventions, and there is no direct cost for it, time of use tariffs are a game changer for making the grid cleaner, saving energy and allowing metered export with out even needing a call out. They just apply the export meter remotely via software.

I dont know if they do disconnect people remotely, but if they did, surely thats a good thing ? If people take energy with out paying for it, thats theft and being able to, or having the ability to disconnect would discourage the theft. It would also save the rest of us bill payers money.


Again, if some one doesn't pay, and some one can flick a switch to move a bad customer to pre pay... Well thats perfect as well, reduces theft, encourages responsible consumption.

Ive never had a problem with being disconnected, and ive never heard of anyone being disconnected because of a hack, the network seems secure based on the attempts (and failure) of nerds to stream live consumption data from their meters with out an official bit of kit.

There is no advantage, until there is an advantage. Wouldent walking round the house with the in home display and turning things on and off be advantageous ? Not having to provide meter readings periodically because the provider get those automatically every 30 minutes and having perfectly accurate bills for every hour that passes. Would plugging in a battery to your house and charging it up at 4.5p over night and discharging into the house during the day and effectivity not paying the 34p p/kWh be an advantage ?

Im firmly on the other side of the fence, i'm happy to debate these issues in the interest of furthering the common good and correcting misunderstandings.

We have to move forward, the grid needs to be cleaner, educating consumers and getting smart meters out there are a huge part of this.

Thanks for those points, but I still consider my advantages minimal at present.
My wife and I are aware of the relative consumption rates of various appliances and adjust our use to be as economical as possible without impinging on our lifestyle. (Put simply if I want a cup of tea I'm getting one)
We did have an energy monitor display a few years ago, but the novelty of watching it soon wore off, and I think it is still somewhere at the back of a drawer.
I don't want to make the capital outlay for a battery system at he moment,, though I will review that when my FIT scheme ends in a few years, and maybe do an overall system upgrade.
I'm not a complete dinosaur! We do have modern efficient appliances, mostly LED lighting, and the house is well insulated, (though don't mention cavity insulation!) I was well up the queue to install solar panels, and enjoy the FIT scheme.
I'm sure that in due course I will be persuaded to a smart meter, probably by punitive tariffs on non-smart, and will have to accept the aspects I don't like. Hopefully the bugs we hear of will have been ironed out by then.
My principal dislike is agreeing to have a switch in my supply cupboard over which I have no control, exacerbated by the fact that its presence is never mentioned by the promoters of the device.

 

[binky]

The other thing that gets overlooked is that oil and gas is the base product for more things than just power generation and internal combustion engines.
For example all the vegan plastic shoes that the green protesters are bound to be wearing is made from ethylene gas from the North Sea, in fact most of the plastics we use in everyday lives from our specs, polybags, plastic dashboards in our cars, plastic battery cases, plastic insulation on cables, all made from oil and gas products.
What are we going to do, go back to using horses hoofs for glue, bone China, ivory chess pieces, we need oil and gas.
Yes we need change, we don’t all need to fly on holiday all the time, or fly our politions to conferences round the world, we don’t need to put bananas in plastic single use plastic bags in supermarkets, the change has to be managed.

our lives are so tied to plastics it makes you wonder how we ever managed before them? Really pees me off when you get a socket in a plastic bag containing another plastic bad with screws and screw caps in, and all those bits of paper telling you how to wire it up, or RCD test labels in every RCBO box. For tunately in Plymouth we have an waste to energy incinerator, so it doesn't all end up in land fill releasing methane as it rots down. It's not ideal, not overpackaging stuff in the first place would be far better

I think lots of fertilizers are a spin off from oil as well? We won't be losing oil any time soon, but burning the stuff for energy is the biggest issue

 

[Murdoch]

Reduction of consumption of pretty much everything is something we can all do now

And I don’t understand why so much single use plastic is still allowed

AND I hate to say this but when Boris Johnson last year said that recycling plastic isn’t the answer he was right. Reducing use of plastic is a better answer

 

[ProDave]

A big start would go back to reusable glass milk bottles and drink bottles.

 

[Murdoch]

A big start would go back to reusable glass milk bottles and drink bottles.

we get our milk in bottles and have reduced the drinks we buy in plastic bottles, preferring aluminium cans where possible

as Tesco’s say, every little counts

 

[Sharpend]

Thanks all but I consider my relatively short existence on this planet to be pretty meaningless in terms of what I do. Reality says that WE are driven by what is produced for US, so as far as I can see until those that drive change their attitudes or resources then WE are only Passengers.

So if you don’t mind I’ll quite happily carry on using my diesel vehicle and unwrapping items from whatever packaging material THEY choose to use.

I know this much, if THEY want ME to stop using something then THEY will make sure I can’t use it.
So in the meantime I’ll carry on living MY life based upon what I can control.

 

[apprentice87]

Absolutely not, wages weren't as high as they are now either so what is your point?

Have wages doubled in 15 tears??? When was the last time, say nurses had a pay rise adn how much was it?? Did their pay double??