Can a non time served (short course) person call themselves an Electrician

[jameseye12]

My final thoughts...

Yes, I'm off, I can't tolerate this discrimination shown on this forum, say what you like, but you have for one judged me purely on my age and qualifications, not on my actual competency, and if any of you actually knew me then I'm sure you would say different, everyone i work for usually asks how i got into the industry and i am up front with them, no one questions it or doubts me, the job is done CORRECTLY, i am paid, certificates are issued etc and all is well, never had a complaint and most customers have referred me to others. So i suppose that says i must be incompetent.

Just because you did an apprenticeship, doesnt mean you can look down on everyone else

All you '5ww's. Good luck - see you in another life

 

[professional]

My whole point is definitions. If we are to assume that the Oxford English dictionary provides us with definitions of words in common use In the English language then I can call myself an electrician. If however we listen to steptoe who believes the EAWR provides the true definition then there can be some debate. However the EAWR does not give a definition of electrician. Could some one who believes I am contravening a law please provide evidence of this. Not an opinion as that is not enforceable in a court of law. Provide evidence to support your opinions or shut the f##k up.

Anyone that can carry out all aspects of the job can call themselves an "electrician" - the problem is that the system by which an individuals ability is assessed is so open to abuse that it defies belief.

UKAS requires an INDEPENDENT, THIRD PARTY ASSESSMENT of ability and knowledge - which the scams cannot do. However, assessment is where all of the profit is so they ignore the conflict of interest and carry on regardless. Scheme providers should take NO part in assessment whatsoever. You should be able to go to ANY accredited assessor and obtain your licence to practice THEN choose who you want to join!

Anyone wishing to work without DIRECT supervision should have a licence to practice and be issued with a photo ID card.

.... and before anyone starts banging on about the JIB, the trade needs a system that is NOT self-serving and corrupt.

 

[m4tty]

No need for that mate just a difference of opinion @ james

 

[safedepth]

[ALT][/ALT]

No need for that mate just a difference of opinion

Not quite. During the course of this thread steptoe has called me a fraud and a liar. Sticks and stones and all that. So I think gobshite is very acceptable.

Sorry, did you mean Jameseye leaving?

 

[steptoe]

I said evidence, gobshite. Where is it. Not in reg 16.

typical, you abuse me when all I have done is use fact, its obvious you dont have the intelligence to actually have a skilled knowledgeable trade,

maybe you should join the navy, they are always looking for someone stupid enough to join :slap

I thought you could read,

its all there in the first paragraph,

or do you need someone to actually explain what it means as its not a multiple choice question?

 

[Manator]

We offer a full and frank discussion on this forum, and we do allow all to have their say,I am also sure that given your background you have a better understanding than most.

Now let us all step back and look at what the real problem is, and this must be done with total unbiased thinking and resolution.

A time served electrician suffered years of low pay, was ridiculed by friends and never had the money that their mill worker mates had.

Suddenly the tables turned and by the dedication of that electrician to go the full mile he ended up earning more than his mates.

Then the heavens opened, a rushed ill thought out resolution was passed by parliament and suddenly a loophole allowed any tom di to call themselves an electrician.

My personal view? I think you above all will admit that time served electricians are justified in having some prejudice,I also believe there are some short course electricians that could run rings around some time served electricians, and if you are a member of this forum it also proves that you are by definition not a cowboy!

Lets face it I know some very valued members that have not served an apprenticeship but are however very valued members of this forum.

 

[steptoe]

[ALT][/ALT]Not quite. During the course of this thread steptoe has called me a fraud and a liar. Sticks and stones and all that. So I think gobshite is very acceptable.

Sorry, did you mean Jameseye leaving?

you call yourself an electrician?

then I think my comments are very well founded,

how do you propose to have gained the knowledge or experience required?

 

[safedepth]

typical, you abuse me when all I have done is use fact, its obvious you dont have the intelligence to actually have a skilled knowledgeable trade,maybe you should join the navy, they are always looking for someone stupid enough to join :slap

I thought you could read,

its all there in the first paragraph,

or do you need someone to actually explain what it means as its not a multiple choice question?

I'll spell it out for you. Where does it say I can't call myself an electrician? Speak up, I can't hear you.

 

[steptoe]

by the general concensus of almost anyone you could care to mention then how would you expect to employ someone claiming to be a tradesman?

certainly not someone that had passed a multiple choice exam.

as you prove time and time again, being a tradesman is something that will always be judged by your peers, even in a court of law, you will be judged by your peers [ expert witness] ,

and until you can prove them wrong then you will not be right,

so, if the general concensus of being a skilled tradesman is having served an apprenticeship [which I believe the general public still expect], then you are not an electrician.

but then again, you are so much more proof that you are better than everyone else you are just yet another statistic as to why our trade is being dragged down and down and down even more.

if you are so good, and a proper electrician, do you think you could get a licence to practice as an electrician anywhere else in the world?

have a look at a few websites and see how they regard claiming to be an electrician from the UK transfers into their regs.

just because in this country any thicko that can read can get a piece of paper that doesn't instantly give them a trade.

 

[Manator]

If you are going to call each other names, then this debate will end.

Be responsible and present facts, present opinion and loose the anger in a gym or in your own private room but not on this forum.

 

[steptoe]

I'll spell it out for you. Where does it say I can't call myself an electrician? Speak up, I can't hear you.

and where does it say you can?

and please stop spouting irrelevant non statutory ill-informed school books at me.

 

[safedepth]

by the general concensus of almost anyone you could care to mention then how would you expect to employ someone claiming to be a tradesman?certainly not someone that had passed a multiple choice exam.

as you prove time and time again, being a tradesman is something that will always be judged by your peers, even in a court of law, you will be judged by your peers [ expert witness] ,

and until you can prove them wrong then you will not be right,

so, if the general concensus of being a skilled tradesman is having served an apprenticeship [which I believe the general public still expect], then you are not an electrician.

but then again, you are so much more proof that you are better than everyone else you are just yet another statistic as to why our trade is being dragged down and down and down even more.

if you are so good, and a proper electrician, do you think you could get a licence to practice as an electrician anywhere else in the world?

have a look at a few websites and see how they regard claiming to be an electrician from the UK transfers into their regs.

just because in this country any thicko that can read can get a piece of paper that doesn't instantly give them a trade.

Distinct lack of evidence, must try harder. Keep looking as so far you have only reinforced my opinion that you are bitter. All along I have asked for a reason why I can't call myself an electrician. You tried using EAWR, claiming it gave the definition. It wasn't until I proved to you it did not that that you even looked in it. Where does it say I can't call myself an electrician? Not opinion, not here say but fact. It's not in reg 16.

 

[Jono Pashley]

chipboard flooring and a claw hammer is great stress relief think some people here should try it.

 

[steptoe]

it is common usage,

I could call myself a submariner, Ive been underwater,!

the fact is you are pretending to be something that the general public would not agree with.

do you have electrician on your stationery? I'll bet you dont have how you entered the industry on it either?

I dont have any grind with you per-sey,

its the whole 5ww balance that has de-valued our trade, sadly, one, that although you may try hard, with your current attitude you will never become part of.

fact is, reg 16 states without knowledge, experience, or supervision you should not be working with electricity,

passing a multiple choice exam [with the answer book beside you] doesnt give you knowledge,

or experience,

and asking your mum to watch you doesnt count as supervision.

so what part of that do you comply with?

 

[NozSpark]

by the general concensus of almost anyone you could care to mention then how would you expect to employ someone claiming to be a tradesman?certainly not someone that had passed a multiple choice exam.

as you prove time and time again, being a tradesman is something that will always be judged by your peers, even in a court of law, you will be judged by your peers [ expert witness] ,

and until you can prove them wrong then you will not be right,

so, if the general concensus of being a skilled tradesman is having served an apprenticeship [which I believe the general public still expect], then you are not an electrician.

but then again, you are so much more proof that you are better than everyone else you are just yet another statistic as to why our trade is being dragged down and down and down even more.

if you are so good, and a proper electrician, do you think you could get a licence to practice as an electrician anywhere else in the world?

have a look at a few websites and see how they regard claiming to be an electrician from the UK transfers into their regs.

just because in this country any thicko that can read can get a piece of paper that doesn't instantly give them a trade.

I'm sorry Steps, but you can

An old mate of mine who worked in a gavl mill did his 2391 and then his 2381, I gave him some work for a while and he did the Australia trade test.... He is now working as an electrician over there

 

[safedepth]

If you are going to call each other names, then this debate will end.Be responsible and present facts, present opinion and loose the anger in a gym or in your own private room but not on this forum.

All through this thread I have been inviting steptoe to provide facts. He has been unable to do so as there is no document, statutory or otherwise preventing me from calling myself an electrician. His opinion of what constitutes an electrician is just that, his opinion. It carries no weight on this forum or in a court of law. I would suggest that if needed I could justify my claims based on the work I do and the experience and qualifications I hold. This forum is unable to prove or disprove my competency and neither is steptoe.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 23:44 ---------- Previous post was made at 23:38 ----------

it is common usage,I could call myself a submariner, Ive been underwater,!

the fact is you are pretending to be something that the general public would not agree with.

do you have electrician on your stationery? I'll bet you dont have how you entered the industry on it either?

I dont have any grind with you per-sey,

its the whole 5ww balance that has de-valued our trade, sadly, one, that although you may try hard, with your current attitude you will never become part of.

fact is, reg 16 states without knowledge, experience, or supervision you should not be working with electricity,

passing a multiple choice exam [with the answer book beside you] doesnt give you knowledge,

or experience,

and asking your mum to watch you doesnt count as supervision.

so what part of that do you comply with?

But the dictionary says that if I work with electricity I am an electrician. Don't give me that statutory crap. Customers don't read EAWR, they aren't particularly aware of apprenticeships. I'm talking domestic here. It's almost all I do.

 

[steptoe]

All through this thread I have been inviting steptoe to provide facts. He has been unable to do so as there is no document, statutory or otherwise preventing me from calling myself an electrician. His opinion of what constitutes an electrician is just that, his opinion. It carries no weight on this forum or in a court of law. I would suggest that if needed I could justify my claims based on the work I do and the experience and qualifications I hold. This forum is unable to prove or disprove my competency and neither is steptoe.---------- Post Auto-Merged at 23:44 ---------- Previous post was made at 23:38 ----------

But the dictionary says that if I work with electricity I am an electrician. Don't give me that statutory crap. Customers don't read EAWR, they aren't particularly aware of apprenticeships. I'm talking domestic here. It's almost all I do.

:slap

you believe everything you read then?

so you tell your customers you never served your time as an electrician then?

almost all of joe Public I know expects a tradesman to be a time served apprentice, maybe I just meet a better quality of people?

I think you mis read the term 'judged by your peers' , how would you actually convince a panel[or one] expert witness to your competency if not through experience?

I dont think many would have much faith in a reading test.

I agree, that my opinion carries no weight on this forum, just as your jumped up claim to be an electrician doesnt either, a court of law may be different however.

I dont have to dis-prove anything, you are showing yourself to be the 'gobshite' here, not me, I dont claim to be anything than what I am.

my opinion of an electrician is also backed up by [imho] the greater majority of the general public,

if it is so little concern to you, why not make it public and tell everyone, and put it on your business cards etc?

or is it asking you too much to be truthful to your customers?

BTW, it just shows how much contempt you have for our trade when you refer to EAWR as crap, you probably think much the same to BS7671, if you dont even follow the legal stuff what chance have we of getting you to follow the recommendations.....

 

[Doc Hudson]

I thought this thread was having a Deja-vu moment with this discussion of Regulation 16. I think Safedepth's point is that Regulation 16 does not actually use the term, name or phrase "ELECTRICIAN" as such he can see no reason why he cannot cannot call himself an electrician if he is working with electrical apparatus amending electrical installations and if he considers himself sufficiently knowledgeable and experienced to prevent danger and injury on the installations he is working on?.

Some arguments have been put forward that only a person who is capable of working in all aspects of the industry can call themselves an electrician. Regulation 16 does not actually say this either as far as I can see. Where do you draw the line? because everybody cannot have hands on practical experience of all aspects. What about the less common or more obscure areas; Petrol Filling stations, Medical locations, Marinas, Agricultural, Fairgrounds etc. Or newer technologies Solar etc. All of which may include combinations of single and multiphase working. Just because someone has not worked on one particular aspects of the industry, either by choice or just availability of work, it does not mean they cannot by competent and experienced in the areas they do work in.

Back on posts 79 & 81 I linked the actual working of Regulation 16 so all can see and cast their opinions on its meaning.

Guidance on regulation 16 is not very long so here is the rest of it for any that want to put stuff into context:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regulation 16 Persons to be competent to prevent danger and injury

No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent

danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work.

233 The defence (regulation 29) is available in any proceedings for an offence under this regulation.

234 The object of the regulation is to ensure that people are not placed at risk due to a lack of skills on the part of themselves or others in dealing with electrical equipment.

"... prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury ..."

235 This regulation uses both of the terms,

 

[batty]

Well I think I understand where Steps is going with this. I won't go into my history with this one as I have not done an apprenticeships but anyway. You have somebody that has done a short course be it 5 weeks or a few months. They buy a van have it sign-written with there name or some flash company name they then go out doing electrical work for joe public. Now joe public is unaware that actually have no practical experience of doing electrical work but as they have the image they let them do work for them. They are unaware this work may be unsafe and even dangerous. I see more and more of this kind of work and this frightens me as some of it could actually be lethal. I am not saying all short course people are like this but there must be a lot, because I see a lot of bad work and it can't be all on my patch surely.

 

[safedepth]

:slap you believe everything you read then?

so you tell your customers you never served your time as an electrician then?

almost all of joe Public I know expects a tradesman to be a time served apprentice, maybe I just meet a better quality of people?

I think you mis read the term 'judged by your peers' , how would you actually convince a panel[or one] expert witness to your competency if not through experience?

I dont think many would have much faith in a reading test.

I agree, that my opinion carries no weight on this forum, just as your jumped up claim to be an electrician doesnt either, a court of law may be different however.

I dont have to dis-prove anything, you are showing yourself to be the 'gobshite' here, not me, I dont claim to be anything than what I am.

my opinion of an electrician is also backed up by [imho] the greater majority of the general public,

if it is so little concern to you, why not make it public and tell everyone, and put it on your business cards etc?

or is it asking you too much to be truthful to your customers?

BTW, it just shows how much contempt you have for our trade when you refer to EAWR as crap, you probably think much the same to BS7671, if you dont even follow the legal stuff what chance have we of getting you to follow the recommendations.....

Sorry, my comment about statutory crap was aimed at preventing you from using the word statutory as an excuse for your lack of evidence.