Changing meter tails

[Part-time-Paul]

I just wanted some other member’s views on a situation I have regarding an upcoming CU change at a property that a customer has just bought. Currently the property in question has a historic economy 7 meter, so the setup is as follows:  25mm tails from service head into “main” meter, then 16mm tails into a 16mm Henley block. From here there are 16mm tails into the non-Economy 7 fuse-board and then another pair of tails into the economy 7 meter/switch, which feeds a second board. There is also a small CSA neutral single going from the main meter to the economy 7 meter, not sure what for TBH. The problem I have is isolating the supply to change the CU; on the presumption that the meter tails will need upping to 25mm (a common problem obviously). There is no room to get Western Power to fit an isolator amongst all the other clutter (the Henley block also feeds 2 other small CU’s for a shower and cooker), and even if they did I would still need access to the meter to swap the tails, so not much point. The meter company want ££££’s to come and remove all the old E7 clutter and have suggested just supplying 2 sets of meter readings in future. Now, I am guessing the “correct” way of doing this is to install the new CU, and then get the metering company to come and fit the tails into their meter once I have done all my dead tests (place is being rewired as well). However, this would entail changing the Henley block so the new tails will fit in, which I can’t do without isolating the whole installation via either getting WPD to provide an isolator (no room) or staring at the service fuse seals until they drop off. It is all a bit like walking through treacle. I am very tempted to just get the seal fairies to pay the main meter a visit so I can just replace the tails from it to a new Henley block, along with the existing E7 tails, and then getting the new owner to ring them up and tell them they have just noticed the meter seal appears to be missing. Trouble is it’s going to look a bit obvious? All this of course is working on the principle that I have to change the tails. I know the advice in the OSG is that they must be changed, but bearing in mind this is a small property which will have a combi boiler/shower and gas oven we all know that the 16mm would in fact be perfectly adequate, however this job is very close to home and I reckon there is a good chance it will be pulled out the hat for my annual assessment so I think it wise to up them to 25mm. Thoughts?

 

[Tony S]

I was going crosseyed reading your post

I just wanted some other member’s views on a situation I have regarding an upcoming CU change at a property that a customer has just bought.

Currently the property in question has a historic economy 7 meter, so the setup is as follows:  25mm tails from service head into “main” meter, then 16mm tails into a 16mm Henley block. From here there are 16mm tails into the non-Economy 7 fuse-board and then another pair of tails into the economy 7 meter/switch, which feeds a second board. There is also a small CSA neutral single going from the main meter to the economy 7 meter, not sure what for TBH.

The problem I have is isolating the supply to change the CU; on the presumption that the meter tails will need upping to 25mm (a common problem obviously). There is no room to get Western Power to fit an isolator amongst all the other clutter (the Henley block also feeds 2 other small CU’s for a shower and cooker), and even if they did I would still need access to the meter to swap the tails, so not much point.

The meter company want ££££’s to come and remove all the old E7 clutter and have suggested just supplying 2 sets of meter readings in future. Now, I am guessing the “correct” way of doing this is to install the new CU, and then get the metering company to come and fit the tails into their meter once I have done all my dead tests (place is being rewired as well). However, this would entail changing the Henley block so the new tails will fit in, which I can’t do without isolating the whole installation via either getting WPD to provide an isolator (no room) or staring at the service fuse seals until they drop off. It is all a bit like walking through treacle.

I am very tempted to just get the seal fairies to pay the main meter a visit so I can just replace the tails from it to a new Henley block, along with the existing E7 tails, and then getting the new owner to ring them up and tell them they have just noticed the meter seal appears to be missing. Trouble is it’s going to look a bit obvious?

All this of course is working on the principle that I have to change the tails. I know the advice in the OSG is that they must be changed, but bearing in mind this is a small property which will have a combi boiler/shower and gas oven we all know that the 16mm would in fact be perfectly adequate, however this job is very close to home and I reckon there is a good chance it will be pulled out the hat for my annual assessment so I think it wise to up them to 25mm.

Thoughts?

 

[kerching]

The DNO will get very moody if you pull the main fuse....it being illegal and that.

other people will get even moodier if you tamper with the meter really REALLY moody

none of this is any help to you, sorry

 

[binky]

buy a bag of seals :innocent

WPD usually fit 80A or 60A fuses, so you could call them to confirm what is in the head or request that it is inspected, or go down the tack of 'the seals have been removed would you like to check your equipment hasn't been tampered with'?

Mostly though, the seal fairy was there before you!

Not sure you can be charged for removing the old Off-peak gear - it doesn't belong to the customer....

 

[Part-time-Paul]

It's a fairly new 100A cut out, so I am supposed to fit 25mm tails. Never made much sense to me when the incoming cable is 16mm but I guess there must b e some logic somewhere. however your suggestion is probably a good solution, I am just going to fit 25mm tails from the CU into a new Henley block and if anyone feels the need in future they can change the ones from it to the meter, and as you say, then contact WPD to let them know the service fuse seals seem to be missing. :Salute

 

[Tony S]

How do you know it’s a 100A cutout, have you looked in the fuse carrier?

16mm incoming, how do you know that? Modern concentric service cables are deceptively small, I’ll also add supply cables don’t come under BS7671.

Like Binky, I can’t understand how removing obsolete metering is chargeable.

 

[binky]

the label says 100A, the fuse fitted is ????

 

[binky]

Like Binky, I can’t understand how removing obsolete metering is chargeable.

Think this is something to do with subby meter fitters - so companies try to charge when they have no right to. If Push comes to shove, (get it de-registered with ofgem if you can be arsed) and take it out yourself (meter fairies also exist :innocent )

 

[ProDave]

i take it (it's a bit unclear) that you don't want E7 any more? (you mention removing the E7 clutter)

So do just that, remove the E7 clutter, fit a new CU with new tails. Leave the tails slightly longer than they need to be and connect them into the henley blocks.

Then tell the energy supplier you no longer want E7 and want the meter changed for a single rate meter. If they won't do that ("just send 2 readings") then change supplier to one who will.

Make sure you are there when the meter monkey comes and instruct him to remove the henleys and just terminate your new tails straight into the meter.

P.S some DNO's like SSE will give you permission to pull their fuse.
 

 

[Murdoch]

 I know the advice in the OSG is that they must be changed,

Really, where does it say that? Unless you know the rating of the incoming main fuse we are speculating.....

 

[Part-time-Paul]

Thanks for your replies so far, and in answer to some of the points raised:

1. The metering company have definitely said they would charge to come and remove the old E7 kit, which is, yes, not required. It is obviously cheaper for them to get either the meter reader or the customer to just submit 2 readings, one of which will never change anyway.

2. I would have thought that getting it de-registered would be an awful lot of hassle, and even then not a very good course of action to just remove it?

3. Regarding the size of the cut-out, it is that big label that says "100A" and the other one that says "100A fuse fitted" that is giving the game away. Hence it is my belief that 25mm tails should be used. 

Murdoch I am sure I have read in the OSG that 25mm tails should be fitted regardless now, but I will go and check.....

Not that it is really relevant but the cable looks exactly the same as the PILC cable that supplies my own house, a guy from the DNO told me ages ago that most of them round my way are 16mm

 

[Tony S]

PILC has a far higher rating than PVC/XLPE and is likely to be 19/.044. If you consider a 35mm concentric is liable to have a 400 or 600A back up fuse you’ll see DNO’s play to different rules.

Anything before the meter bares no relevance to what comes after the meter and therefore doesn’t enter in to the equation.

Finally there’s a bit of a difference between what the OSG says and real life.

 

[Evans Electric]

Getting any sense out of metering people these days is quite difficult .  

Some sparks , I'm told , would just get on with it  , remove the redundant E7  stuff , upgrade the meter tails , re-seal etc   instead of spending unpaid time trying to work the stupid system that we are blessed with .      This is what I'm what I'm told. 

You can always request that an isolating switch is installed before you start your job .....  good luck with that .   I'm also told that some sparks fit their own 100A isolating switch  so they can  get on with the job .   

 

[Murdoch]

emergency mate - had to pull the main fuse to ensure I was working in a safe and isolated environment....

 

[Part-time-Paul]

Right, OK. With the greatest of respect I am beginning to think this might have been a bit of a mistake. Ask a reasonable question get a load of fairly stupid answers.

Murdoch I am a bit surprised at you, this is not the sort of response we would get on the "other side", should I say. It is quite obvious that most of the people on here who have replied have not even read the OP.

I will take my leave I think. Ah Revoir, as they say.

 

[Murdoch]

Right, OK. With the greatest of respect I am beginning to think this might have been a bit of a mistake. Ask a reasonable question get a load of fairly stupid answers.

Murdoch I am a bit surprised at you, this is not the sort of response we would get on the "other side", should I say. It is quite obvious that most of the people on here who have replied have not even read the OP.

I will take my leave I think. Ah Revoir, as they say.

Next time, spend some time on your punctuation, and formation of paragraphs - the OP is almost unreadable with rather too many points and variables.

As they say.... ask a simple question, get a simple answer

and re my last post - once you have tried to do it by the book and wasted many many hours trying to arrange for things to happen you will wake up, realise you are not earning much, and then with a large does of common sense, learn to work sensibly and safely......

 

[Part-time-Paul]

I realise the OP was a little complicated, and possibly far to comparatively involved for the average "desk bound" folks that obviously lurk around this place. I think my grasp of the English language is pretty good frankly, compared to the average, and I don't think that the narrative would have been particularly enhanced by a more polished presentation, the relevant point is quite obvious.

And by the way, it's "dose" of common sense, not "does", tut tut.

Your comment regarding doing things by the book or earning a dollar are accepted and appreciated, why didn't you just say so in the first place? That was what I was going to do anyway, I was just looking for other opinions, obviously a mistake......

 

[Evans Electric]

Sorry Part Time Paul if you didn't see the double meaning in my post ...I thought my meaning was fairly obvious .   

 

[ProDave]

What this thread shows is the difficulties we face.

We are supposed to be able to safely isolate something to work on it, but there is no industry wide means of achieving that. Each DNO has their own set of rules about providing isolators, or isolating for you, and as has been mentioned doing it "by the book" can be expensive, time consuming or both.

i am quite lucky that I'm in an SSE area, and most of their standard rate meters have an inbuilt isolator, and only the input terminals are sealed, so a CU change and changing the tails from the meter to the CU can be done legally and safely using the built in isolator.  It is a great shame this is not mandatory.  Sadly this only applies to single rater meters so would not help me in this situation with an E7 supply.

There is no easy solution to the OP's issue, and I can't fault what the forum has said about dealing with the bad situation we often find ourselves in.  Only you, on site, can make a judgement about how to solve a particular difficulty. But please don't shoot the messengers because you don't like to hear how it is.

 

 

[Part-time-Paul]

Yes, I get the double meaning. I have got a bag of meter seals like a whole load of other guys, and have no problem in doing what we have to do. At the end of the day the seals we stick on after we have done this are meaningless, we might as well not bother. Unless they are officially stamped ones they count for nothing. I was rather trying to see if other guys have had similar issues with this sort of E7 setup and dealing with network suppliers and metering companies.

Some guys seem to suggest we should wet our pants at the mere thought of disturbing the seals (i'm not sure if any sparky has ever been prosecuted for doing so or "aiding and abetting a customer to abstract energy unlawfully", as has been alluded to, but I very much doubt it). I was really trying to make sense of the rather complicated situation that we find ourselves in sometimes, but WTGrape, I will just carry on regardless.