Cu Change

[Steve3948]

Steve, i agree with this and most of your related posts especially about making the install safer. But i as a Nic A/C could not do this and bet you dont show your test sheets to the assesor ?

Slips, the NIC do not run my business and if I put deviations on cert and advise the client in writing they either like or they don't.

I am not saying it's correct but it's better to give them something rather than nothing and make it very very clear it should be done as soon as possible.

For the record we have never been in this position this is what I would offer if a client could not afford to have it all done at once due to financial reasons, offer options and help, just saying you have it done this way or no way means they the consumer suffer and get nothing done.

On the other hand if the OP made the mistake of not picking up on this when he quoted and it's not down to cost, then he should write to the client and advise that he has overlooked other elements of the installation and the earthing should also be upgraded at an additional cost.

 

[NozSpark]

IMHO it would be better to have the earthing and bonding installed than replacing the CU

 

[Steve3948]

IMHO it would be better to have the earthing and bonding installed than replacing the CU

I totally agree and that would be my first offer if they asked for a fuseboard change thinking that would make them safe.

 

[Sharpend]

Well you are infact correct there Noz, the trouble is that the reliance of RCDs has somewhat caused some to become blinded to the importance of correct earthing and bonding arrangements.

 

[steptoe]

Slips, the NIC do not run my business and if I put deviations on cert and advise the client in writing they either like or they don't.

I am not saying it's correct but it's better to give them something rather than nothing and make it very very clear it should be done as soon as possible.

For the record we have never been in this position this is what I would offer if a client could not afford to have it all done at once due to financial reasons, offer options and help, just saying you have it done this way or no way means they the consumer suffer and get nothing done.

On the other hand if the OP made the mistake of not picking up on this when he quoted and it's not down to cost, then he should write to the client and advise that he has overlooked other elements of the installation and the earthing should also be upgraded at an additional cost.

so are you saying its wrong then?

it can only be one or the other,

right or wrong,

so,

is it right,

or is it wrong ?

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

Thanks for the explanation. If you were picked up on that though, you would get red marks. The only ones i have ever been picked up on was for missing cicuit charts, even though the board was labeled and certs were availible. When i asked how one of the new style A5 sickers you fill in with biro is better than printed labels on a board i didnt get an answer.

 

[Sharpend]

Slips, out of interest what info do the Nic required you to have on the charts? The ones that I have been issued with to use seem to contain info that really is irrelevant in my opinion.

 

[binky]

bit like changing brake pads and advising discs are shagged but you're not going to change them.

As it happens being a TT install, then 6mm earth is proably perfectly adequate. If you use the adiabatic equation it will confirm or dispel my last comment. There are however afew bits in the BGB about sizing earths based on size of meter tails, and original poster should give this section a damn good read and fully understand wtf he's just done.

Going back a few years I calculated minimum size earh on TT ,using adiabatic,as being 0.25mm, However as the BRB at the time required a minimum of 6mm what was fitted was not adequate. On that particular job I ugraded to 16mm, not so much because the install required it by regs, but because it will take firk site longer to corrode through than the 6mm required. And as few people ever get electrics checked more than once every 20 years, this seems a good policy to me. Since doing that jon I have also read Steps many psots on earthing, and would now install 16mm just becuase the house next door might converted from TT to TN-C-S, but that isn't a regulatory requirement.

The old adage of leaving better than found would not stand up in a court of law, you either do a job right or should leave it alone. I know that is easier said then done sometimes, and have been caught out myself, but it should never be your starting position, especially if like me, you want to see our industry regain it's professional reputation

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

Slips, out of interest what info do the Nic required you to have on the charts? The ones that I have been issued with to use seem to contain info that really is irrelevant in my opinion.

Only a circuit chart, ie

Counting from switch

1. Cooker

2. Shower

3 Downstairs sockets

etc

 

[Sharpend]

Do you not need any further info, it's just the ones I have to use now have got details of the circuit such as; wiring type, installation method, cable size, breaker rating and type?, number of points, rcd rating, disconnect time, max Zs.

Now to me there is a lot of info that is not needed on these as any competent spark would be able to determine this by looking at he board. ??

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

I think the reason for that is , like i used to, many people copied a page from the cert that all that is on. Nowadays i type up a circuit chart in large letters on headed paper, laminate it and fix it adjacent to the board

I also assume most customers have not got a clue about anything electrical , so i type basic instructions on how to reset the rcd's & breakers and UP is on !

 

[Manator]

One of the main problems with any CU change is the bonding, the actual changing of the board is relative to how easy it is to join and connect cables.

This is why a thorough pre install site visit is required and some minimum global tests undertaken to establish suitability. Bonding should always be upgraded as part of the change if it is required and included in the quote.

One of the main problems we face in the electrical industry is that people are out there who do not do things properly and we find that we are indeed competing against the untrained and the ill informed. This will always continue until changes are made, which I fear will never happen in my lifetime.

If a CU change is carried out without bonding upgrades I fail to see how a building compliance certificate can be issued from the building control, I must admit here that I may be wrong?

 

[binky]

you're not wrong Manator. However, with proper knowledge of regs, particularly in relation to TT systems, it is surprising what you can get away with on bonding and main earthing cable sizes. However, a thorough knowledge of regs is required before going down that route.

 

[JTI sparks]

Heavy..

As much as I appreciate you're guys input, I don't particularly want to or like to read about two people slagging each other off.

This is a forum and is so for a reason.

I've taken what I can both both sides..

Regs 132.16 & tables 54.1 &

542.3.1. 54.8

544.1.1

Have been taken into account as one side argues,

Yet the other side makes a valid point on whatever gets done (eg RCD ∨ RCBO's are a much needed improvement.. If the client is completely aware of such deviations and does not have the capital to finance.. That is out of my hands..

Anym

 

[JTI sparks]

Anymore or other input is more than welcome.

 

[JTI sparks]

**** sorry,

I didn't see these other posts..

 

[batty]

Look mate you have C***** up. When quoting for the CU change you need to see if bonding is in place and if its needed that needs to be part of the price of the consumer unit change. How do you know they can't afford it have you asked them? Personally I don't think you are running your business to well if a CU change is a major issue. Who are you registered with as there advice line is probably who you need to speak to. They will tell you whether it needs doing or not.

 

[M107]

Odds on if you ring the NICEY tec line they will say the 6mm bonds are fine....

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Alright all

I'm changing a cu over for an up to date 17th edition board, no worries.

Having briefly looked over the existing instlallation there appears to be no bonding and the main protective conductor looks like 6mm maybe 10 but I doubt it.. It's a TT installation and the conductor heading to the earth electrode seems to be 6mm as well.

My question is if I change the CU and complete with electrical installion certificate, and code the lack of bonding and incorrect main CPC size and inform the client.

Can anything come back to me if a fault happens to occur??

Cheers

Appreciate the comments

Heavy..

As much as I appreciate you're guys input, I don't particularly want to or like to read about two people slagging each other off.

This is a forum and is so for a reason.

I've taken what I can both both sides..

Regs 132.16 & tables 54.1 &

542.3.1. 54.8

544.1.1

Have been taken into account as one side argues,

Yet the other side makes a valid point on whatever gets done (eg RCD ∨ RCBO's are a much needed improvement.. If the client is completely aware of such deviations and does not have the capital to finance.. That is out of my hands..

Anym

Erm.... my thouights...

1) TT installation??? surely its already RCD protected....??????

2) How can a competent electrician be doing a CU change and only just find no bonding in place???

Price over the phone with no site survey..?

Or quoted on the cheap??

3) Whatever you do... the customer will think ....

"Oh we had it done by a proper electrician so it is all safe"..

and IF anyone did get any serious shocks later due to your lack of bonding...

I know exactly who I would be recommending they sue for compensation!

as Mr lawman may suggest that it is not difficult to verify bonding before undertaking any works

as per 132.16 or

130-07-01 brown book.. or

130-09-01 yellow book......

So it should be standard industry procedure for a competent person charging for their expertise!

You cant plead ignorance as if it was a new reg only just introduced..

only deliberate negligence trying to cut corners not following industry standard guidelines

for adopting a reasonable duty of care to your work....

One argument is....

a] Its better doing the work making it apparently safer

But the customer could be lulled in to false sense of security about their electrcis...

Wheras....

b] It may be better not doing the work and advising the customer more robustly of the importance to having the work done correctly...

So they are clear that there are some other safety issue that need resolving...

scenario A could be more expensive for you if it goes belly up!

scenario B would incur no extra costs or losses if it went belly up

scenario A customer thinks all is good and safe..

scenario B customer knows they need to save up probably an extra £200 tops to get a few more bits resolved

At the end of the day its your call as you will carry the flack...

Personally I wouldn't do what you are suggesting...

I would do it right and sleep soundly..

or walk away ...

I cant afford the risk of someone coming back at me for the sake of £200 and 10mins checking when writing quotes.

:coat

 

[Nicky Tesla]

"There's a reg quite early in the BGB that basically says that any addition or alteration to an installation must be done safely and that the current installation must be able to safely carry the alteration / addition."

Can the installation carry the alteration/addition? Yes of course it can, the DB itself does not introduce any extra current.

6mm earthing conductor and 6mm to the earth rod is very likely to be ok anyway on a TT system and does anyone know what the earth rod resistance is anyway?

Supplementary bonding is not even needed in a bathroom with the 17th edition these days because the IEE have complete faith in RCDs now, otherwise they would still insist on supp-bonding.,

Only do what you are paid for and give advice for what else is needed. The tenants may feel that since there has not been a problem for the last 30 years and the fact that many of the other houses down the street are the same without even a new DB then there is no rush to upgrade.

Would any of you refuse to replace an out of date DB in one flat in a block, knowing that all the other flats need their bonding upgrading too because you have seen everybody elses supply in the communal mains cupboard? you could

Only do what you are paid for and give advice for what else is needed.

Binky said "would now install 16mm just becuase the house next door might converted from TT to TN-C-S"

If you are still TT then how will neutral current flow along your earth conductors because being a TT your earth is not connected to neutral.