Electrical Danger Notice!!! Client Seriously Not Happy

[husky2013]

Hey guys n girls

in a bit of a pickle!

issued a Danger Notice, whilst out doing a quote!

Original Quote was for

'got a socket in me extension, its not working can you come have a look at it'

we went and had a look at it and its spurred from somewhere, so we begin to have a look around in other sockets, etc all over the house to try and find where it is spurred from!

when we started opening up other areas of the property, we begin finding things that where of extreme serious concern!

Old Wylex Unit with Push Pop (i think they are BS3871 breakers

No RCD Protection

secondary board 3871 breaker again 45a feeding a board in the loft which then feeds 2 Electric Power Showers

3rd board in garage feeding lighting and SWA to garden greenhouse, which feeds pond pump, and lighting

Metal Faceplate switches and sockets, most circuits are still being supplied with VIR (vulcanised indian rubber)

the tails are cloth braided and extremely undersized

non fire rated or ip rated downlighters in a bathroom covered by loft insulation and boarded out!

the list is endless

so out of a safety concern we issued the danger notice!

we stated that it is our recommendation that a full Electrical Installation Condition Report be carried out, but in our experience we would recommend a full rewire!

now the client has been on the phone today mouthing off (rather visciously)

we have supposedly caused implications with her insurance now

she is going to take legal action aparantly

she is not going to recommend us to anyone (not that im bothered)

and J Southern Electricals Ltd can go screw themselves was her exact words!

now we dont issue these notices for no aparant reason, and we also told the client on the eve of the quote about the problems!

i was wondering wether ther is a way of finding out whom insures her property so i can forward a copy of the report onto them! and wether contact the DNO and making them aware of the electrical danger!

she says that she has been there 40 years, and had no problems with the electrics, and that she does not intend on upgrading any of it, as she feels it isnt a danger! i seriously feel this property poses danger!

any advice be great guys n girls!

 

[batty]

I think you have to be very careful issuing danger notices things like no RCD protection are not really a danger to life its only been in the last two versions of wiring regs that they are required. As for old wiring systems i took some TRS out the other day and it was as good as when it was installed as said i think you need to be very careful.

 

[husky2013]

The danger notice wasnt issued for the lack of rcd, it was mainly issued for the cabling, as it is in a very bad state! but the client just wont have it!

Mr S was seriously shocked at the state of the cable itself and how bad of a condition it is, we seriously consider what other actions to take before issuing one of these but it was that bad it warranted us to issue it!

i just duno what else we can do, we seriously felt that the occupants had an electrical danger!

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 16:03 ---------- Previous post was made at 16:02 ----------

normally with lack of RCD we normally just give them a leaflet about rcd, and the benefits of it.

 

[ianmacd]

I'm with batts on this one. without a ir test, how do you know cable is dangerous? missing insulation maybe?

 

[ccfc]

As batt and ian have said think u have been a bit quick off the mark issuing a danger notice . Think i would have discused what you have found with the client and explain verbally and in writing and that u recomend a EICR be done before any electrical work can be carried out.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

The words i always use in this type of situation is 'Potentially dangerous'.

 

[ccfc]

Exactly slip

 

[kme]

Must concur with the guys; although only you know exactly what you saw, and your experience and competancy are the backup you call on when your decisions are questioned.

Generally, I would only issue a danger notice on a code 1, where I was unable (for whatever reason) to make the condition safe at the time!!!

Customer doesn`t have to "like it". What you are really doing is covering yourself against a future claim on yourselves, as the last "competent person" to touch the install.

n.b. I`d generally issue an EDN for a specific item of danger; rather than a general "your install is carp" type of thing.....

I also try to avoid suggesting a full rewire - so many "Joe Bloggs" customers know that phrase, and relate it to outlandish cost and mess, to make something work that, in their eyes, works anyway.

KME

 

[NozSpark]

The only times that I have issued a ECDN was when I was quoting for an additional light, the lighting circuit had no CPC and they had class 1 fittings everywhere - 3036 fuse board with no RCD protection

And a house that had a CU (ceramic fuses) with a missing cover.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 18:30 ---------- Previous post was made at 18:28 ----------

The first one wouldn't even sign for receipt of the notice, the other one let me put a large adaptable box over it - it was only for the lighting circuits, but they were 2 core VIR and he wouldn't let me rewire them

 

[Manator]

I am with the other guys here, just because an installation looks bad, does not mean its dangerous. if we take the tails for instance, I have known the cloth covering to come off in my hands whilst touching them, but on test there was no leakage, whilst demand looked overloaded, again on test witheverything running at the same time I only recorded 56 amps or so. Again dealing with VIR cables, I have seen these pass an IR test, however as they are past their maximum life expectancy it would always be wise to inform the client to have these replaced as soon as financially possible.

Electrical regulations are not retrospective, just like building regulations, imagine if we decided to issue danger notices because no smoke detectors are fitted, or no extraction fitted to utility rooms or bathrooms.

 

[PC Electrics]

You've done your "bit" by bringing it to the attention of the client. They don't have to like it and probably don't. What they do next is up to them. Your ***** is covered, forget it and move on.

 

[streetlighter]

I think I'm more than justified in issuing the danger notice. When there is brass switch plates with twin core rubber cable behind them and no CPC and also the case of the 3 Way WYlex board in the loft area this was fed via a 6mm PVC twin and earth from a 45 amp Mcb this then fed two showers my guess 7.5kw each via a 32a Mcb for each and two small lighting circuits. No sleeping on any CPUs nothing labelled in the main board and exposed inner cores outside of the unit.

 

[Andy™]

if your really that worried its going to kill someone, inform DNO. they have a right under ESQCR to isolate the supply if necessary

 

[batty]

But are any of those a danger to life to me the showers at worst will blow the 45 amp fuse, Brass switches have probably been like that for years without killing anybody and when you say exposed cores i assume you mean the pvc part and not the copper part. No installation is perfect but that is no reason to issua a danger notice a danger notice should only be issued when there is a threat to life.

 

[Manator]

Just as its been discussed before, without your visual inspection we have to rely on what you describe, and to be honest the inspector is the one who can only make this decision, given another narrative of your findings I also think you are justified in issueing a danger notice.

 

[husky2013]

i rung SP they wernt interested as it was nothing concerning anything before the meter!

just goes to show how much they actually bother with any installations

 

[streetlighter]

And I haven't even mention the quality install in the greenhouse twin and earth lashed to the metal frame though there was an IP55 rated socket but no gland in the 20mm cable entry.

 

[ProDave]

But are any of those a danger to life to me the showers at worst will blow the 45 amp fuse, Brass switches have probably been like that for years without killing anybody and when you say exposed cores i assume you mean the pvc part and not the copper part. No installation is perfect but that is no reason to issua a danger notice a danger notice should only be issued when there is a threat to life.

I read "power shower" to be a shower that takes hot and cold water, mixes them, and pumps it to give a higher flow, so minimal demand.

 

[Evans Electric]

Never mind, you felt it necessary to do what you thought was best , its up to the owner now .

If they get someone else who thinks its OK , thats up to them, you did what you thought was best .

At least you didn't walk away from it .

And here we go again ......who are we not ???........ We are not The Electric Police!!

 

[Doc Hudson]

The wording on the download Danger notice recently added to the forum states there is a "real and immediate danger to the property and users". In my opinion exposed live parts would constitute this or serious overloading. As the examples on the notice refer to shock, fire, explosion, arcing etc.. without a formal inspection of old cables it may be difficult to prove the level of danger from old wiring. The ESC guide on light circuits without CPC doesn't specifically suggest a danger notice and as Slipshod implies, I would have thought a letter highlighting the potential dangers you have observed with recommendation of a full periodic inspection, or suggest they seek a second opinion from another registered electrician, may have been a better first step. But obviously you make your judgment on what you actually saw, (did you get any photos?), we are only evaluating written description, which can be out of step with reality. However whatever the condition of the installation you do not have any legal rights or responsibilities to go writing to any third party business (such as insurers) unless the customer has asked you to on their behalf. I suspect some data protection issues may be involved here. Without absolute concrete evidence of an immediate danger and/or injury to some person the client could possibly accuse you of deformation of character to their insurers. I would think it best just to walk away and leave well alone.

Doc H.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 21:16 ---------- Previous post was made at 21:15 ----------

I read "power shower" to be a shower that takes hot and cold water, mixes them, and pumps it to give a higher flow, so minimal demand.

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