fire rated downlights

[shed69]

I have been to a house to do some repairs and the guy asked me about downlights. When I looked at them they were not fire rated - one was even cut into the joist.... I recommended that he changes them to fire rated fittings and we fit led lamps also. They were fit in 2003, can anyone shed light on when the fire rated came into effect as I thought it was much longer than 2003.... ??

 

[steptoe]

most standard 2 storey house do not require fire rated fittings,

but, cut into a joist, thats something different altogether, by how much? has it altered the load bearing capacity of the joist in any way?

 

[NozSpark]

You don't really need fire rated spots in a house,, it's only properties that have seperate fire compartments (eg flats) that need then.

On to the issue of them being cut into the joist,,, they should be moved and the joist repaired.

LED are good as they will save them loads of money,,, normally payback is after 12 to 18 months

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 18:40 ---------- Previous post was made at 18:38 ----------

Saying that,,, I do fit fire rated downlights in downstairs ceilings and all the time when BC are involved

 

[shed69]

I'm a little concerned that sparks are saying fire rated are not required... I think you'll find they are wherever a habitable room or escape route exists above.... So pretty much anywhere downstairs unless it's a flat roof ie kitchen on rear of property....

Upstairs only if a loft conversion has been done.

The idea is that the fittings require a hole and that hole breaks the integrity of the ceiling board that has a fire rating to comply. So tell me why you wouldn't use FR fittings? The fire would simply go straight up an burn the floor above that would be potentially used as an escape route for a family in the event of a fire(god forbid but it happens guys)... The floor could collapse due to this. Also what about fire men going in too.... ??? Have I got this totally wrong or are there sparks like me that truly believe that themselves and I are fitting these properly and the guy not using them are indeed in the wrong ???? Not been critical to anyone or trying to say I know it all but it's just what I've believed for years to be the truth...!

 

[Doc Hudson]

Can you reference the Building regulations that you base your opinion on please. It is not a wiring regulation. There are all available for download. This topic has come up numerous times but no one has actually referenced a regulation that states your viewpoint?

Doc H.

 

[DJLSparks]

Building regs Part B

 

[Theorysparky]

Shed

The Building Regulations state that any residential dwelling with the top floor height of up to 18m above the ground should have ceilings resistant to fire to up to 60 minutes. The residential building that have a top floor up to 30m should have ceilings resistant to fire for up to 90 minutes.

not much else to say except all 3 storey buildings need fire rated downlighters

now most guys will fit them as a preference ,,,,,,for i would just so the carp from the loft/voids doesnt fall on me head !!!!!

as far as joists go there is no laid down rules,,,,,but on my last assessment i was asked the question what would i do.....

1.5 times the diameter from the joist or what is recommended by the manufacturer...

 

[shed69]

Can you reference the Building regulations that you base your opinion on please. It is not a wiring regulation. There are all available for download. This topic has come up numerous times but no one has actually referenced a regulation that states your viewpoint?Doc H.

The installation of electric still has to conform with any building regulation that it may interfere with... Also what is part p...? A building regulation... Stay with me on this then, A builder puts a ceiling up and ensures it conforms to building regs, then sparks come along an cut a 70-80 mm hole every 1metre or so to put a light in... The spark has altered the integrity and is therefore responsible in my eyes for making sure a suitable fitting that will return the relevant fire rating back to what it was, ie putting a 30, 60 or 90 minute rated fitting in the hole he's cut ...! Doc, surely you agree that without , the hole with a poxy open fitting would let the fire spread very very easily ip through the cracks an potentially set a bed cover alight for instance...?? Building regs also require a dose of common sense and thought sometimes too....

By the way, good info theorysparky....

 

[Theorysparky]

Shed

Planning Portal - Part B (Fire safety)

have a read

 

[Evans Electric]

This argument goes on forever , I see it the same as Shed69 , I think a lounge ceiling,say, 1/2 inch plasterboard , skimmed is deemed to be 1/2 or 1 hour fire rated.

With a load of 70mm holes in it with open backed fittings it cannot be fire rated anymore.

To save any hassle and discussions such as this I just fit fire rated downlights anywhere ,anyplace , always , the others , to me , do not exist.

 

[Manator]

Normal plasterboard is not fire rated. Loft conversions will come under building regulations and alter the escapability of domestic houses, but even then, building control will only insist on an escape route offering half an hour protection. In this area fire rated downlights would have to be installed, other than that no room in a domestic house, unless otherwise built so, is fire rated therefore fire rated downlights or smoke hoods are not required to be fitted.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Building regs Part B

I am aware that Building regulations part B volume 1 if fire safety dwelling houses, but you have not answered and I am not aware of a specific regulation in here stating that every ceiling in the property must have fire rated down lights installed?

The installation of electric still has to conform with any building regulation that it may interfere with... Also what is part p...? A building regulation... Stay with me on this then, A builder puts a ceiling up and ensures it conforms to building regs, then sparks come along an cut a 70-80 mm hole every 1metre or so to put a light in... The spark has altered the integrity and is therefore responsible in my eyes for making sure a suitable fitting that will return the relevant fire rating back to what it was, ie putting a 30, 60 or 90 minute rated fitting in the hole he's cut ...! Doc, surely you agree that without , the hole with a poxy open fitting would let the fire spread very very easily ip through the cracks an potentially set a bed cover alight for instance...?? Building regs also require a dose of common sense and thought sometimes too....By the way, good info theorysparky....

You have not actually backed up your illustration with any factual reference document. Have you read approved document B volume 1 fire safety in dwelling houses. I couldn't find any specific reference requiring fire rated fitting in all domestic ceilings. Without that, your opinion is purely your preference but not a requirement for compliance. In ideal situations where money is no object I suspect most sensible electricians would install fire rated lights. But that does not make it a rule that they must be installed.

Fire rated down lights have a seal that expands in the event of heat to stop the passage of smoke, not the passage of flames. As both fire rated and non fire rated are predominantly metal construction neither will be combusted easily in the event of a fire. I understand that inhalation of smoke is the greater danger in a house fire which is why fire rated doors with seals & closers are fitted on taller three floor or more properties. As there is no requirement for fire rated doors in standard lounges hallways etc of a two floor property, it is strange to consider that fitting of lights that will reduce the passage of smoke is required.

I think it comes under fire compartments in approved document B?

Doc H.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

In addition to the points raised have you not thought about the fire rating of a standard open fitting. This is held into a ceiling with fixings that would last longer than half an hour. The light bulb is designed to operate at temperatures hotter than most house fires. I have experimented with a blow torch on an old open fitting in a piece of plastered ceiling. We burnt some newspapers for some smoke, none got through. With the flame below but away from the lamp no smoke got through and no damage to the light bulb was evident after 10 min. If the flame was put directly on the light bulb the glass cover did eventually crack but the rest held up and no flame or smoke got through. The can of a 'fire resistant' downlight is more for the sound insulation than fire protection from below the ceiling.

 

[ktguk]

Normal plasterboard is not fire rated. Loft conversions will come under building regulations and alter the escapability of domestic houses, but even then, building control will only insist on an escape route offering half an hour protection. In this area fire rated downlights would have to be installed, other than that no room in a domestic house, unless otherwise built so, is fire rated therefore fire rated downlights or smoke hoods are not required to be fitted.

Thought plasterboard was a 30min barrier

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

In addition to the points raised have you not thought about the fire rating of a standard open fitting. This is held into a ceiling with fixings that would last longer than half an hour. The light bulb is designed to operate at temperatures hotter than most house fires. I have experimented with a blow torch on an old open fitting in a piece of plastered ceiling. We burnt some newspapers for some smoke, none got through. With the flame below but away from the lamp no smoke got through and no damage to the light bulb was evident after 10 min. If the flame was put directly on the light bulb the glass cover did eventually crack but the rest held up and no flame or smoke got through. The can of a 'fire resistant' downlight is more for the sound insulation than fire protection from below the ceiling.

Please please please please..

can you do this again and video it for the forum uncle Slip Slap???? :Salute :Applaud

 

[steptoe]

Andy is your man for experiments,

but maybe he only likes the dangerous ones.? :slap

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Don

 

[steptoe]

I just ask you SL ,

then if you dont tell me what I want to hear,

I argue the toss and do whatever suits me anyway,

like most idiots,

 

[Theorysparky]

Don

 

[shed69]

Evans electric your on the money pal, I do the same regardless fit fire rated wherever they are, go home and sleep at night knowing ive done the job the best possible way.... I pay about