Split load board conforms to 17th...?

[chris_k]

Afternoon all.

Just been to a day nursery to price up a few extra sockets in the cellar. Had a look at the board that was fitted last aug. Its a wylex split load with one bank covered by rcd!

Now my understanding of the regs is that when doing a board swap you must bring the installation up to 17th. all circuits must be covered by rcd (with a few exceptions...).This was fitted by a NICEIC app contractor who supplied certs (didnt get to see them)

I made a comment to the owner about the board not being to regs and he is ringing the spark now to get an explanation.

I am right arnt i? Theres no way an old split loader can be used? My big red book is with one of the lads at the moment. Can someone post the apropriate reg no(s). for me on here. I know i get a call later just need the back up

Cheers

Chris

 

[Apache]

If it's just a nursery and there is no accomodation then it's not a domestic premesis and you don't even need a RCD (unless it's TT).

Doesn't come under the scope of part P!

 

[M107]

He might have used rcbos on the non rcd side?

Patch it doesnt matter if it's domestic or commercial or industrial rcd's/ rcbo's are still required (in certain situations they can be ommitted.

 

[Apache]

He might have used rcbos on the non rcd side?Patch it doesnt matter if it's domestic or commercial or industrial rcd's/ rcbo's are still required (in certain situations they can be ommitted.

What about the 'under the control of a comeptant person'? The kiddies arn't going to be puting nails in the walls?

 

[M107]

As it's a nursery full of kids I'd be thinking the use of rcd's is a good thing on the sockets....nothing a toddler loves more than sticking things things in to holes.............(boys just never grow out of it :^O ).

 

[M107]

What about the 'under the control of a comeptant person'? The kiddies arn't going to be puting nails in the walls?

Might be hard pushed to get the thumbs up on that one.

Sockets would still be required to have rcd.

 

[Apache]

Might be hard pushed to get the thumbs up on that one.Sockets would still be required to have rcd.

OP says half the board protected by RCD - we could probably assume this included the sockets?!

 

[spinlondon]

There's no requirement for commercial premises to be RCD protected.

The EAWR requires that anyone carrying out any action under their terms of employment, must be trained or supervised.

Therefore any one using a socket outlet at work must be skilled or instructed to comply with EAWR.

It may be decided that RCD protection is required by the designer after consultation with the person ordering the work. However that is something that falls outside of the requirements of BS7671.

 

[chris_k]

yeah sockets are protected. Its just the lights.

There is a flat above the nursery thats unoccupied at the moment. Run off the same board so i would assume the job should have been notified? It wasnt.

I found this on a quick search-

522.6.7 - which covers all circuits. It says: 'Where 522.6.6 applies and the installation IS NOT INTENDED TO BE UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF A SKILLED OR INSTRUCTED PERSON a cable installed in accordance with 522.6.6 (v) (safe zones) and not complying with 522.6.6 (i), (ii), (iii), (iv) (mechanically protected) SHALL BE PROVIDED WITH ADDITIONAL PROTECTION BY MEANS OF AN RCD having the characteristics specified in Regulation 415.1.1' - again by means of a 30mA device.

Are nursery workers and parents skilled or instructed persons?

 

[spinlondon]

yeah sockets are protected. Its just the lights.There is a flat above the nursery thats unoccupied at the moment. Run off the same board so i would assume the job should have been notified? It wasnt.

I found this on a quick search-

522.6.7 - which covers all circuits. It says: 'Where 522.6.6 applies and the installation IS NOT INTENDED TO BE UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF A SKILLED OR INSTRUCTED PERSON a cable installed in accordance with 522.6.6 (v) (safe zones) and not complying with 522.6.6 (i), (ii), (iii), (iv) (mechanically protected) SHALL BE PROVIDED WITH ADDITIONAL PROTECTION BY MEANS OF AN RCD having the characteristics specified in Regulation 415.1.1' - again by means of a 30mA device.

Are nursery workers and parents skilled or instructed persons?

If the flat shares the same supply as the nursery, then any work carried out in the nursery that requires notification should be notified.

When you say last Aug, I'm assuming you mean Aug 2008.

If the design was conducted before the 17th came into force, then the design and subsequent installation can be to the 16th.

As the 17th did not come into force untill July 2008, it is quite possible that the installation was to the 16th, as such none of the 17th edition Regulations pertaining to instructed and skilled person are applicable.

The only Regulation pertaining to RCDs that would apply, is that socket outlets that could reasonably be expected to be used outside should have 30mA RCD protection.

Obviously, if the installation is TT, then a 100mA RCD would be required.

With regards, to your question about nursery workers and parents.

It doesn't matter if nursery workers and parents are skilled or instructed.

The requirement is that the installation be under the supervision of a skilled or instructed person.

As the premises is commercial, the EAWR apply.

As I posted earlier, EAWR requires any employee to be trained or supervised in their duties. As such the installation has to be under the supervision of a skilled or instructed person in order to comply with EAWR.

BS7671 recognises EAWR an assumes that the law will be complied with.

 

[ian932]

See question 2 of the link it may help http://www.niceic.com/en/contractor/article.asp?SECTION=18&ARTICLE=56

While the regs don't require it there is a case for having sockets rcd protected to cover any possible failing of the company's health and safety education. I see no end of commercial and industrial places with abuse to the installation that would question the effectiveness of the 'Supervising Person' so if possible I design it around RCBO

 

[chris_k]

When you say last Aug, I'm assuming you mean Aug 2008.

No, last Aug as in 2009

The requirement is that the installation be under the supervision of a skilled or instructed person.

As the premises is commercial, the EAWR apply.

As I posted earlier, EAWR requires any employee to be trained or supervised in their duties. As such the installation has to be under the supervision of a skilled or instructed person in order to comply with EAWR.

BS7671 recognises EAWR an assumes that the law will be complied with.

It just seems odd to me that in an operation like this that is regulated to within an inch of its life and has to have all manner of safety systems in place can get away with only having the sockets on RCD.

Oh i forgot to mention the cooker (with socket) is on the non rcd side.

Cheers

Chris

 

[Nicky Tesla]

and your only a domestic installer?

 

[chris_k]

and your only a domestic installer?

Meaning?

 

[Nicky Tesla]

Meaning?

sorry meant that for Ian.....he says he does a lot a commercial stuff but hes only a domestic installer ....twoz .just a slight curiosity.

 

[spinlondon]

Oh this Aug, not last Aug.

Where is the cooker, in the flat or the nursery?

If the cooker is in the flat, then the only way the installation could comply is if the installation was originally designed to the 16th, and they took a long time getting round to the installation.

Going back and re-reading your OP.

I don't know that there is a requirement to upgrade the whole installation, to the 17th.

It is a requirement for the work carried out to be compliant to whichever edition the work is carried out to. Any defects in the existing installation would need to be noted on the EIC.

I don't suppose you've had sight of the EIC for the board change?

Considering that you have noticed these defects, I suppose all you can do is note them on your EIC/MWC for the work you are carrying out.

 

[Andy™]

sorry meant that for Ian.....he says he does a lot a commercial stuff but hes only a domestic installer ....twoz .just a slight curiosity.

but still, whats that got to do with anything? im registered with elecsa, and do lots of commercial

 

[chris_k]

No worries. I do a small ammount of commercial work, though not under NICEIC banner or certs.

 

[ian932]

sorry meant that for Ian.....he says he does a lot a commercial stuff but hes only a domestic installer ....twoz .just a slight curiosity.

Being registered as a DI does not prevent you doing Commercial or Industrial unless the client requires you to be registered as an AC.

 

[batty]

I did six board changes in a private club and was told by my assessor that they would need to comply with 17th edition so would require total RCD protection. You cannot use supervised reg as you do not know what people are going to do in nursery. Being done by a NICEIC contractor does not surprise me that he did not comply as said in a previous thread a NICEIC contractor who fitted a board at the beginning of this year used a RCD main switch board on a job that I looked at how does that comply.

Batty