Start And Finish At Office/yard

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I often get builders moaning about not being on site for 8:00am and leaving before 5:00pm, but charging for a day's work.

My view is lorry drivers get get paid for driving so why shouldn't I.

I have to pick up materials for the job, why should I do it in my own time.

This happens even when its on price.

I've had a policy of starting and finishing at the office/yard ever since being self employed, this followed on from when I was employed we used to meet at the yard to be given our days work.

Obviously on the bigger contracts when employed, where you can be be on site for over 2 years it was start and finish on site.

Whats' your views on this.

 
I knew it wasn't going to be good when you started

"I often get builders......"

My attitude is, i don't work for them so start and finish to suit myself and each job and Also i price per job not per day

In return I turn up when I/we arrange to, I charge something they are comfortable with ( I.e. low enough for them to add their £200 on top without the customer kicking off) and I allow them to fob me off for a month or so when the jobs finished before getting paid!

 
If I was employing you and you bill me for 5 hours I expect 5 hours work from you. If you have paperwork to do then invoice for that separately, but most should be done on site anyway - especially if you are using some software. Get the stuff delivered to site for free.

I charge on time, but sadly cannot pass on the time spent drug ordering or cleaning up afterwards. If someone wants a certificate then they are charged extra for that.

 
You would expect your post delivered free then, and all those lorry drivers out there driving from A to B free also.

Once I get in my van I'm working for someone so it's built into the cost.

The house I was in yesterday had a washing machine repair guy in and it took him 15 minutes to then tell her it's beyond economical repair and your bill is £65.00 + Vat. She paid without a murmur. He did what exactly other than drive to and away

 
Getting stuff delivered is a minefield .

If we rely on getting it delivered we will often have it delivered a week early to site. Then we can get the facilities guys to check if its all there. Sometimes when we get there it can still have something missing. Some sites can not take delivery early.

It's no good relying on things to be delivered if that's what is needed to work that day. They can turn up at any time and have missing, wrong or broken parts.

Sometimes we fit things which turn out to be faulty.

Often we get promised items the next day to the wholesalers and it does not arrive.

Or ' yes it's in stock and the computer said its there but I can't find it'

Some guys turn up do a little then say I need to go and get the parts. All done on clients time and no one moans about that.

When I have used a service like a vet they just say £200. Never have I heard of one saying that took me 10mins so at £300 an hour that's £50.

Most services have costs like the office, secutery, insurances, advertising, all the stuff to run a buisness. I worked out roughly i need £22-30 a day to cover yearly costs of everything. If I was employed it would all be supplied.

When people get a bill of say £200 it's not just for 5-6 hours work on site it's to cover all the other stuff, including getting materials.

I don't see why anyone should work extra hours and not get paid for it.

 
IMHO you are looking at it all wrong, if you spend 20% of your time doing paperwork etc that means for 6 hours work you need 8hours pay, simply adjust your hourly rate to allow,

So if you charge 20£ hr, you simply now charge 24.

Same pay for less hours on site, but you still get paid for material collection etc.

 
Paper work time for 4 hour job could be the same as paperwork time for s 40 hour job.

I think as said befor each job is different.

Very topical for me this thread as I have just spent 3 hours in 3 different wholesalers this afternoon.

Ordered rcbo's last week, still not in and wrong ones on back order. Change it to 2x6A 1x16A. Can't order me 100mA td rcd . I then go to Edmonsons, collect rcbo's . Ring QVS back to cancell, he tells me I have 2x32A rcbo's on back order. I say it's wrong and I don't want them now.

Edmunsons tell me MK are not delivering new orders until new year and I will have order it through Barking branch where account is and have it delivered to Southend Edmonsons branch.

I won't bore you with the trouble I have had trying to get 50w-80w led flood lights ordered. Only want 6 or 7 so maby £1000 worth. Too much hassle for the suppliers if its not on the shelf.

And I will be getting paid for my time

 
I usually get there a bit after the builders, this is because I get my materials,  all other trades 'nip off' to get them or send the builder out.  I prefer my way less cock ups.  Leave when the job is done.  Rarely know all materials to get so try to get a afternoon delivery for other bits usually got enough materials to be getting on with so the delivery is less critical.  Never once had a builder moan about my cost, but never had one pay quick either.  

Enjoy the work and the laughs although I would never tell them that.

 
The job I'm just finishing has taken 5 weeks .  Its 26 miles from my house.    About 20 for  the builder , whose electrics I've done for for about 12 years now.     They are onsite at 8.00 AM  without exception and leave at 4.30 .

For me to do the same I'd be charging an extra 3 hours a day for travel time 1 1/2 hrs each way .     He doesn't pay his 2 guys travel time.  And coming home you come back into B,ham by the Jaguar works , leaving site at 4.30 puts you in long traffic queues there.   Leaving at 4.15  can save 1/2 hr on the journey.

I meet him halfway by starting out at 7.30    usually onsite by 8.45    leave at 4.15 .    

Normally I charge from when I leave office to when I get back.  

 
Pewter - I bet I could get anything you wasted 3 hours trying to source delivered to my door the next day via the internet in less than 15 minutes using my phone. Give me a computer and less than 10 minutes

http://www.ledhut.co.uk/led-flood-lights/1-x-50-watt-led-floodlight-4500-lumens-equiv-200-watt-2-options-avaliable-2.html

Loads in stock

100mA TD RCD

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MK6400.html

16A RCBO

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MK7934S.html

6A RCBO

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MK7932S.html

Toolstation has the RCBOs in stock.

You think the customer should pay for you being inefficient messing about for 3 hours because you are struggling to source materials?

We work 'wellies on to wellies off' and once we stop working we stop charging. The customer is welcome to time it too, I usually round down to the nearest 5 minutes. Minimum charge is 20 mins, but good clients with quick jobs may be let off with less. We do charge a visit, but that is half price for pre-booked work (so about £10). As I said I will charge extra for certification or specific office jobs.

If I book you to come and do a job I expect you to have with you all you are reasonably likely to need to complete that job. It's a bit different if I ring you with an unknown fault.

How do you think my clients would like it if I said I could fix their animal but can't gets the bits I want until new year, I've brought the wrong sized syringes with me and it will cost you 3 hours of my time whilst I drive around the countryside looking for some.

Get real.

 
to be fair Apache, it can be a bit different for us,

if I had a 40 footer I still wouldnt have the stuff I needed in it,

take today, went to look at a faulty stat,

plumber had been and tried a few things and made this decision, AFTER meddling about with three different wiring centres!

turned out to be faulty UFH actuators, I NEVER carry them,

3 out of ten dodgy, client wants all of them replaced,

same with CUs, how many different makes of each size do I need to carry?

I carry most of the basics for domestic, and some commercial, but very limited on ind on my van,

how the heck could Canoey or SW carry possible stock?!

 
Pewter - I bet I could get anything you wasted 3 hours trying to source delivered to my door the next day via the internet in less than 15 minutes using my phone. Give me a computer and less than 10 minutes

http://www.ledhut.co.uk/led-flood-lights/1-x-50-watt-led-floodlight-4500-lumens-equiv-200-watt-2-options-avaliable-2.html

Loads in stock

100mA TD RCD

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MK6400.html

16A RCBO

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MK7934S.html

6A RCBO

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MK7932S.html

Toolstation has the RCBOs in stock.

You think the customer should pay for you being inefficient messing about for 3 hours because you are struggling to source materials?

We work 'wellies on to wellies off' and once we stop working we stop charging. The customer is welcome to time it too, I usually round down to the nearest 5 minutes. Minimum charge is 20 mins, but good clients with quick jobs may be let off with less. We do charge a visit, but that is half price for pre-booked work (so about £10). As I said I will charge extra for certification or specific office jobs.

If I book you to come and do a job I expect you to have with you all you are reasonably likely to need to complete that job. It's a bit different if I ring you with an unknown fault.

How do you think my clients would like it if I said I could fix their animal but can't gets the bits I want until new year, I've brought the wrong sized syringes with me and it will cost you 3 hours of my time whilst I drive around the countryside looking for some.

Get real.
Can you guarantee to fix a clients animal from the telephone diagnosis? 

sometimes i can (more so if they are skilled and know why something is broken), but most of my clients are not electricians and do not know exactly what is wrong except that it does not work.

i have accounts with TLC,WF,CEF,Electrafix,Jegs. I am very familier with how they operate

i doubt you would have sorted everything i was after in 15 mins, it would have taken longer to find the pages in the catalog's, work it out and write it all down.

I usually take more then what i need as it can all be credited back also (this covers different problems/unknowns that can arise). With internet delivery im not sure how crediting items back would work. would there then be collection/postage costs. The other big problem with the internet delivery is where it is been sent and who is going to be there to receive it and check its all been delivered and is not broken or wrong items etc.

Continuity of items is also a big issue. I have found one branch can stock one make and another branch have a different make. By talking to the counter staff i am able to get a better idea if i will be able to get the same items again.

I use TLC a lot, have a good enough relationship to be able to max the account out and then put some more on and collect at the back door to avoid the que. Just because the computer said it is in does not mean it is on the shelf or they will actually get it delivered the next day even though they said they would. how do you know these companies actually have these items in stock to deliver the next day?

For most of todays stuff which took me 3 hours i had to deal with QVS and Edmundsons. I had to do this as the clients accounts are with those wholesalers. The choice of using the clients time and his accounts or use my own money to get it done quicker and mabey not get it back after christmas leaves me little choice. The client does not care about cost just as long as it gets done, and going through his accounts is best for accounts and paperwork.

The example of ordering RCBOs and how the order got lost twice, put down wrong twice was to highlight how things can take longer then expected . If the store said they will get them in the next couple days and multiple cock ups happen, its just one of the hazard of dealing with most of these companies.

I can use WF in basildon who are good, bethnal green who are  the worst store i have ever used, yet the one in the city Burner street by oxford street is the best wholesalers i have ever used in my life. I have found the same with all of the whole salers, one store can be good while others can be awful. All rely on the delivery driver and other stores who can ruin the good effort put in.

My 3 hours was for a lot more then just those items, and as certain items were not available i had to consult with others to work out changes and how they wanted me to tackle the problems. It involved a lot of phone calls, wholesalers 14 miles apart, a bit of problem solving, a couple of drinks and some banter and chit chat. 

In my experience dealing with the guys on the counter is more reliable then ordering off the internet. For items i am paying for, i can usually source a lot cheaper and quicker. If im working for a company that has accounts with certain places and are happy to pay me to arrange it i have no problem doing so.

Hats off to you for charging £10 for a 20 min visit. The cheapest vet i have ever heard of.  Most sparks & plumbers i know charge £40ish for a visit, first hour free, even if it only takes 10 mins.

I can spend £20 in fuel, £10 congestion charge,  £30 in parking, 3 hours total travel for a visit to fix something in 5 mins. I have to charge a lot more then £10 for the 5 min visit. The clients are usually very happy and most dont care about the cost as the problem can cost them a lot more.

 
Pewter - I bet I could get anything you wasted 3 hours trying to source delivered to my door the next day via the internet in less than 15 minutes using my phone. Give me a computer and less than 10 minutes

http://www.ledhut.co.uk/led-flood-lights/1-x-50-watt-led-floodlight-4500-lumens-equiv-200-watt-2-options-avaliable-2.html

Loads in stock

100mA TD RCD

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MK6400.html

16A RCBO

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MK7934S.html

6A RCBO

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MK7932S.html

Toolstation has the RCBOs in stock.

You think the customer should pay for you being inefficient messing about for 3 hours because you are struggling to source materials?

We work 'wellies on to wellies off' and once we stop working we stop charging. The customer is welcome to time it too, I usually round down to the nearest 5 minutes. Minimum charge is 20 mins, but good clients with quick jobs may be let off with less. We do charge a visit, but that is half price for pre-booked work (so about £10). As I said I will charge extra for certification or specific office jobs.

If I book you to come and do a job I expect you to have with you all you are reasonably likely to need to complete that job. It's a bit different if I ring you with an unknown fault.

How do you think my clients would like it if I said I could fix their animal but can't gets the bits I want until new year, I've brought the wrong sized syringes with me and it will cost you 3 hours of my time whilst I drive around the countryside looking for some.

Get real.

Have you actually looked at some of TLC's delivery options???

1-2 working days..

&

1-3 working days are not uncommon delivery choices...

TLC DELIVERY.JPG

NEXT DAY...???

not there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and..

next day..

can often be not before 10:00, nor before 12:00  maybe before 6:00pm if lucky...

so who do we charge whilst sitting around waiting for the delivery to arrive...

as there is no one else in to sign for it?????

Clearly you have never received a parcel with missing, damaged or broken items..

That are unfit to be installed on a job..

and that the customer would not accept...

So replacements must be ordered...

Even Screwfix recommend to organise deliveries for a few days before you need items!!

The bottom line in all businesses is..

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH...

all time is catered for somewhere in the billing structure of every successful business!

 
Can you guarantee to fix a clients animal from the telephone diagnosis? 

sometimes i can (more so if they are skilled and know why something is broken), but most of my clients are not electricians and do not know exactly what is wrong except that it does not work.

i have accounts with TLC,WF,CEF,Electrafix,Jegs. I am very familier with how they operate

i doubt you would have sorted everything i was after in 15 mins, it would have taken longer to find the pages in the catalog's, work it out and write it all down.

I usually take more then what i need as it can all be credited back also (this covers different problems/unknowns that can arise). With internet delivery im not sure how crediting items back would work. would there then be collection/postage costs. The other big problem with the internet delivery is where it is been sent and who is going to be there to receive it and check its all been delivered and is not broken or wrong items etc.

Continuity of items is also a big issue. I have found one branch can stock one make and another branch have a different make. By talking to the counter staff i am able to get a better idea if i will be able to get the same items again.

I use TLC a lot, have a good enough relationship to be able to max the account out and then put some more on and collect at the back door to avoid the que. Just because the computer said it is in does not mean it is on the shelf or they will actually get it delivered the next day even though they said they would. how do you know these companies actually have these items in stock to deliver the next day?

For most of todays stuff which took me 3 hours i had to deal with QVS and Edmundsons. I had to do this as the clients accounts are with those wholesalers. The choice of using the clients time and his accounts or use my own money to get it done quicker and mabey not get it back after christmas leaves me little choice. The client does not care about cost just as long as it gets done, and going through his accounts is best for accounts and paperwork.

The example of ordering RCBOs and how the order got lost twice, put down wrong twice was to highlight how things can take longer then expected . If the store said they will get them in the next couple days and multiple cock ups happen, its just one of the hazard of dealing with most of these companies.

I can use WF in basildon who are good, bethnal green who are  the worst store i have ever used, yet the one in the city Burner street by oxford street is the best wholesalers i have ever used in my life. I have found the same with all of the whole salers, one store can be good while others can be awful. All rely on the delivery driver and other stores who can ruin the good effort put in.

My 3 hours was for a lot more then just those items, and as certain items were not available i had to consult with others to work out changes and how they wanted me to tackle the problems. It involved a lot of phone calls, wholesalers 14 miles apart, a bit of problem solving, a couple of drinks and some banter and chit chat. 

In my experience dealing with the guys on the counter is more reliable then ordering off the internet. For items i am paying for, i can usually source a lot cheaper and quicker. If im working for a company that has accounts with certain places and are happy to pay me to arrange it i have no problem doing so.

Hats off to you for charging £10 for a 20 min visit. The cheapest vet i have ever heard of.  Most sparks & plumbers i know charge £40ish for a visit, first hour free, even if it only takes 10 mins.

I can spend £20 in fuel, £10 congestion charge,  £30 in parking, 3 hours total travel for a visit to fix something in 5 mins. I have to charge a lot more then £10 for the 5 min visit. The clients are usually very happy and most dont care about the cost as the problem can cost them a lot more.

pewter,

no harm to you buddy, but if you are running your costing based on that post then I wonder how you are actually making your business pay.

I was SE virtually all my life up until I went employed when I returned to England 5 years ago,

after recently going SE again at the beginning of last year Ive had a lot of changes in my pricing structure for the various extra charges Im incurring working back in England, especially for the subby work I do,

I dont bill extra hours for it though, Im simply adjusting my pricing structure to allow for it.

I know how much I need to earn weekly, I have a good idea how long a job will take me, parts will take me so a time to arrive/collect, paperwork will be so many hours, I simply build these into the price,

subbying, or otherwise on an hourly basis is like wanting to be employed,

I have no-one telling me I have to spend so many hours each day on a job, I dont work for them, I DO work for them,

take today for instance, went to a job I thought would take me 3-4 hours, I was there for 7, but, I had told the customer it was a days work to find the fault, then I would be able to quote for required remedials,

they were happy with that, had I finished earlier I would have gave them an appropriate discount, but thats how things work,

I now, like someone else said on here, compete on price, I compete on skill and quality,

I used to try and price really competitive, now I purely price on the fact of my work being what the client wants, and if they dont l;ike my price then they will pay it in a few months after the bodge job they have got.

todays job was similar to that, albeit the client didnt know me at the time the previous 3 bodges were done.

 
Have you actually looked at some of TLC's delivery options???

1-2 working days..

&

1-3 working days are not uncommon delivery choices...

attachicon.gif
TLC DELIVERY.JPG

NEXT DAY...???

not there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and..

next day..

can often be not before 10:00, nor before 12:00  maybe before 6:00pm if lucky...

so who do we charge whilst sitting around waiting for the delivery to arrive...

as there is no one else in to sign for it?????

Clearly you have never received a parcel with missing, damaged or broken items..

That are unfit to be installed on a job..

and that the customer would not accept...

So replacements must be ordered...

Even Screwfix recommend to organise deliveries for a few days before you need items!!

The bottom line in all businesses is..

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH...

all time is catered for somewhere in the billing structure of every successful business!

exactly the point Im trying to get across,

as for your other points,

Im afraid SL is right Apache, mail order on a day to day basis just isnt reliable enough to run a business using,

dont get me wrong, it can be very good, but only when the timing is right.

 
pewter,

no harm to you buddy, but if you are running your costing based on that post then I wonder how you are actually making your business pay.

I was SE virtually all my life up until I went employed when I returned to England 5 years ago,

after recently going SE again at the beginning of last year Ive had a lot of changes in my pricing structure for the various extra charges Im incurring working back in England, especially for the subby work I do,

I dont bill extra hours for it though, Im simply adjusting my pricing structure to allow for it.

I know how much I need to earn weekly, I have a good idea how long a job will take me, parts will take me so a time to arrive/collect, paperwork will be so many hours, I simply build these into the price,

subbying, or otherwise on an hourly basis is like wanting to be employed,

I have no-one telling me I have to spend so many hours each day on a job, I dont work for them, I DO work for them,

take today for instance, went to a job I thought would take me 3-4 hours, I was there for 7, but, I had told the customer it was a days work to find the fault, then I would be able to quote for required remedials,

they were happy with that, had I finished earlier I would have gave them an appropriate discount, but thats how things work,

I now, like someone else said on here, compete on price, I compete on skill and quality,

I used to try and price really competitive, now I purely price on the fact of my work being what the client wants, and if they dont l;ike my price then they will pay it in a few months after the bodge job they have got.

todays job was similar to that, albeit the client didnt know me at the time the previous 3 bodges were done.
My costings for the year are based on what i spend for the year on stuff i need as an electrician.

the post i made on here was free.

 
Take a look from a different angle....

Does anyone seriously think that Tesco's or Sainsburys or Asda etc..

only cost for the time they employ check-out staff who will deal with customers direct??????

NO!!..

Their costs also include the bit when the shop is shut and staff are stacking the shelves and the fuel for the delivery lorries....

and the blokes or women doing the evaluations of the new Christmas Jamie/Delia/Heston special ready meals/cakes/pies etc..

Electrical work is no different..

All cost MUST be covered somewhere down the line!

 
Last edited by a moderator:
All cost MUST be covered somewhere down the line!
I agree totally so sort your hourly rate to include the time it takes you to source materials on average.

I make money by way of a margin on drugs I sell, but never charge for the messing about sourcing them (and at times that can take ages).

My call out fee is simply for getting me there. The clock starts once I arrive.

TBH I have only ordered once from TLC so can't comment on them.

I use SF and TS and CPC a lot and can't think of a day that the delivery didn't arrive next day if I order on time (I quite often place orders in the evening so it can take an extra day). SF do free returns. I had a few bits delivered damaged from SF once and they replaced them next day.

I'm not saying that it is the only way but if you plan ahead I imagine you'd save a lot of time. Don't your wholesalers deliver? CEF have a van that runs throughout the Dales. I cannot see it being economical to spend 3 hours sourcing stuff, driving around.

I did say in my post that it is a bit different in faults/emergencies.

 

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