Surge Protection mandatory Sect 433

[Sidewinder]

And I suggest that about 95% of sparks haven’t got a clue what you are going on about.

The photo above would be my defence of the stuff hit the fan.

I do think that some people really should stop trying to complicate matters.

I only bought AMD out of interest so these suggestions about immediate implementation is just nonsense. A conversation with a sparky mate earlier, who hasn’t bought AMD 2 yet couldn’t believe the suggestion there isn’t transitional period

A CPS member who had their surveillance review in mid March might not buy AMD 2 until Feb ‘23

Well the industry is going to have to get used to the reduction in the transition period.
Just like other industries are with the standards that apply there.
I only suggested the additional reading because you brought the point up, to enable you to begin to understand the reasoning behind the changes.

 

[Andy™]

And I suggest that about 95% of sparks haven’t got a clue what you are going on about.

many employed sparks probably dont have any previous either

 

[Murdoch]

Well the industry is going to have to get used to the reduction in the transition period.

Hows that going to work then? The electrical police coming out to all of our homes to check we have the latest set of regs AND doing random installation checks to ensure the latest regs are being followed?

Those things don't happen now and I can't imagine anyone being able to afford to do them in the future.

I would pay good money to be a fly on the wall in meetings where this type of action or changed is discussed - because I'd love to hear the discussion around the changes .....................

 

[Sidewinder]

Hows that going to work then? The electrical police coming out to all of our homes to check we have the latest set of regs AND doing random installation checks to ensure the latest regs are being followed?

Those things don't happen now and I can't imagine anyone being able to afford to do them in the future.

I would pay good money to be a fly on the wall in meetings where this type of action or changed is discussed - because I'd love to hear the discussion around the changes .....................

I doubt that there was very much discussion.
It is something that was probably pretty much cut and dried.
BS7671 was not following IEC or BSI rules, which it needs to in order to be, a British Standard so it had to change.
Amd 2 is already in force and no new design should be started to Amd 1.
You might even find that scheme providers are going to require you have it on your next assessment. I will ask the question of NAPIT the next time I speak with one of the relevant senior bods there.

 

[Sparksfly]

I have experienced only one electrical issue in the last 15 years that required an SPD....go figure. (repeating myself again. )

I have not got the latest amendment yet( every time I had bought it ...the assessors were not up to speed) So I will continue with the blue book design/install until I get the new one at a discounted price and have read it.

Talking of which.... where is the best price for it at the mo ?

 

[Sidewinder]

I have experienced only one electrical issue in the last 15 years that required an SPD....go figure. (repeating myself again. )

I have not got the latest amendment yet( every time I had bought it ...the assessors were not up to speed) So I will continue with the blue book design/install until I get the new one at a discounted price and have read it.

Talking of which.... where is the best price for it at the mo ?

How can you be sure that only one time in 15 years has required a n SPD, often random failures are blamed on the equipment, whereas in fact they are due to over voltage.

Just remember that if you go past the date of withdrawal of Amd 1 then you will have to list using Amd 1 as a departure, and you are somewhat stuck on your choice of forms, Amd 1 or Amd 2?
Also you may well find that the premises insurance will be void for installations to Amd 1 after the date of withdrawal.

For me cheapest is the IET direct. I have not looked anywhere else.
But I gather if you are a NAPIT contractor and attend one of their paying roadshows, the book is included in the cost. So that is probably the best bet for NAPIT members.

 

[Murdoch]

I doubt that there was very much discussion.
It is something that was probably pretty much cut and dried.

just simply nonsense

Amd 2 is already in force and no new design should be started to Amd 1.

but to people who haven’t bought AMD 2 they are simply unaware of your interpretation of the implementation date

nonsense

the people who decide these things need a huge dose of reality ….. they are so out of touch with what’s going on at the coal face

 

[Sidewinder]

just simply nonsense




but to people who haven’t bought AMD 2 they are simply unaware of your interpretation of the implementation date

nonsense

the people who decide these things need a huge dose of reality ….. they are so out of touch with what’s going on at the coal face

This is not “my” interpretation, I am relating to you the official IET, BSI and IEC interpretation.

Who do you think are so out of touch, & why?
Just making a statement like that is ridiculous.
I could make an equally ludicrous statement, I could say that you are out of touch with the correct implementation of British Standards, & ask you why you have not done the CPD to understand this.

 

[Murdoch]

This is not “my” interpretation, I am relating to you the official IET, BSI and IEC interpretation.

Who do you think are so out of touch, & why?
Just making a statement like that is ridiculous.
I

you are voicing the opinion of very few, people, that think that releasing a new guide with immediate implementation is acceptable - when the people making these decisions have absolutely no way to encourage or enforce the people are supposed to be applying it to actually buy a copy.

AND based upon Napit, their expectation is that members will have the latest copy for their next assessment - which could be as late as February or March 2023

im so glad to be leaving this industry very soon - it’s lost its way, is effectively controlled by profit making companies and the CPS,s do not act in the best interests of their members

it’s so sad it’s almost funny

 

[Sharpend]

Sadly there is a valid argument to both sides,
1) standards and improvements will always develop and in this fast paced ever changing world which we live in it’s not surprising that no one industry can keep up.

2) then there is the fact that it always comes at a cost to the man at the front face, particularly the self employed who in many instances are one or two man operations, so these continued costs have more far reaching impact. Even more so in this ever increasing costs era.

3) a far better system would be to have ALL electricians registered to one body such as IET and then the regs and subsequent updates are passed on for free, along with the relevant training updates or at a heavily subsidised cost. This then gives an equal playing field for ALL electricians, as it stands I suspect there are probably more electricians without up to date Regs than there are with. By bringing it All under one house it would be far easier to comply?

4) CPS schemes to be abolished as they are unfit for purpose and have the registration to IET tightened up so that electricians are electricians and not one minute wonders, then Part P compliance is subject to building control not put on the electrician.

You instill in an industry, better standards and better ethics if half the team are not playing the same game.

 

[BorisJ]

Hows that going to work then? The electrical police coming out to all of our homes to check we have the latest set of regs AND doing random installation checks to ensure the latest regs are being followed?

The regs are not statuary. End of……

 

[Sharpend]

The regs are not statuary. End of……

And? Does this mean you shouldn’t have the latest version to work too? If so who knows what version you are working too?

 

[Sparksfly]

And? Does this mean you shouldn’t have the latest version to work too? If so who knows what version you are working too?

We all could offer the customer a version to work from eg pre-RCD protection for domestic luminaires....... In reality... the majority of customers are usually unaware of latest regs or amendments or what BS7671 is. In fact all they want is a safe working outside light.(a simple example).

 

[Sparksfly]

you are voicing the opinion of very few, people, that think that releasing a new guide with immediate implementation is acceptable - when the people making these decisions have absolutely no way to encourage or enforce the people are supposed to be applying it to actually buy a copy.

AND based upon Napit, their expectation is that members will have the latest copy for their next assessment - which could be as late as February or March 2023

im so glad to be leaving this industry very soon - it’s lost its way, is effectively controlled by profit making companies and the CPS,s do not act in the best interests of their members

it’s so sad it’s almost funny

Well said....It will be sad to see you go Murdoch but I do hope you will continue to contribute to help anyone in the industry keep a more common sense/reality approach.

 

[Sparksfly]

How can you be sure that only one time in 15 years has required a n SPD, often random failures are blamed on the equipment, whereas in fact they are due to over voltage.

Just remember that if you go past the date of withdrawal of Amd 1 then you will have to list using Amd 1 as a departure, and you are somewhat stuck on your choice of forms, Amd 1 or Amd 2?
Also you may well find that the premises insurance will be void for installations to Amd 1 after the date of withdrawal.

For me cheapest is the IET direct. I have not looked anywhere else.
But I gather if you are a NAPIT contractor and attend one of their paying roadshows, the book is included in the cost. So that is probably the best bet for NAPIT members.

SPD's - Just going by experience, Customer had extractor fans lasting 2/3 days(approx 10 years ago)...quality ones for 2 weeks at best....transient voltage caused by heavy industry nearby, SPD installed.
If I see TVs/delicate electronic equipment burning out every week, I'd fit one as standard. Or one could say the equipment was not fit for purpose. I have used surge protection for years on my PC/laptop via a plug or extension lead. However, it should not be promoted as a must have solution for cheap electrical devices designed not to last.

Amd1 departure - I have used old forms/certs because new ones were not published in time...and have been assessed as non-compliant due to not having SPD or AFDD tick box on my certs. So what is really important here ? Carrying out electrical work in a safe manner to a good standard or ticking boxes I currently rarely use? Thats CPS for you

BS7671 :Thank you I will look into it, In the meantime there are some real creative reviews on Amazon about BS7671:2018

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Requirements-Electrical-Installations-Regulations-Eighteenth/dp/1785611704​

 

[Andy™]

you are voicing the opinion of very few, people, that think that releasing a new guide with immediate implementation is acceptable

previous is still valid for while yet, so its not a case of everything must now be done to new version like your post implies (& certain members)

 

[Murdoch]

previous is still valid for while yet, so its not a case of everything must now be done to new version like your post implies (& certain members)

I agree with you 100%

Still wondering how the muppets who dream up these daft ideas are going to ensure that ALL sparks run out and buy the latest edition immediately it comes out, read it, understand it and do all new designs to it.

 

[Sharpend]

I agree with you 100%

Still wondering how the muppets who dream up these daft ideas are going to ensure that ALL sparks run out and buy the latest edition immediately it comes out, read it, understand it and do all new designs to it.

I bet they’ll put a course on to update you.

 

[Murdoch]

I bet they’ll put a course on to update you.

and insist on me buying a number of new books etc

 

[Sharpend]

and insist on me buying a number of new books etc

You done this before?