Testing Ze for a new consumer unit in a garage

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I have now moved this thread to the student and learning zone, my apologies to the OP. The reason for the move is the above post by ADS.If any first year student would like to draw a fault path showing why the supply cable will be at some point shared please feel free.
Ha Ha Very funny, Manator

The supply cable will share the fault path of half your street and the next - again, what's that got to do with being seperate installations.

When I said that the fault path between the 'Main Installation' and the 'Outbuilding Installation' wouldn't be shared, I mean that a fault on one will not have an effect on the other - they don't share 'Earth Paths'.......that's why you TT it.

You draw the Fault Paths of the 'Main Install' & 'Outbuilding' and show me how they are shared - they have the same Line conductor but that's it --But so does half the town!!

You really are scraping the barrel now.

 
OK,

I am a bit busy tonight, however, I'll give this one punt for now.

Taking aside the previous arguments and discussions for now.

The origin of the system is the supply presentation for the installations(s) from the DNO.

Can we agree on this?

The DNO will present this in one of 3 forms for public supplies in the UK will they not.

So what are the takes on this?

I may have some more time later, I'm gonna have a quick squint at the other threads then off to design a distributed machine control with dc injection brake to 60204 & PUWER98 rquirements with a doffed hat to the LVD & the m/c directive and a few other standards, got to get the bits in and build it to fit by Monday.

So if I don't reply immediately it's coz I'm a bit busy for a mo, sorry.

 
Please do not retort to personal name calling. If you can not see how contradictory your statements are, I am at a loss as to how to explain this.

First you say that there is no shared path, then you call me a few names and then say there is a shared path, then go on to elaborate that so does all the street share the same path.

 
Please do not retort to personal name calling. If you can not see how contradictory your statements are, I am at a loss as to how to explain this.First you say that there is no shared path, then you call me a few names and then say there is a shared path, then go on to elaborate that so does all the street share the same path.
I edited my post, Manator - before you posted this - I agree with Plumber, you see, it is a good thread and I didn't want to ruin it.

The thing is, you are babbling now and going off on mad tangents - please answer Plumber's well-put questions.

 
Please do not retort to personal name calling. If you can not see how contradictory your statements are, I am at a loss as to how to explain this.First you say that there is no shared path, then you call me a few names and then say there is a shared path, then go on to elaborate that so does all the street share the same path.
Manator please explain why the system will become TNC?

Why the neutral is an issue?

And why you feel the many parallel fault paths are an issue?

 
origin of supply: point at which electrical energy is delivered to an electrical installation (note: is does not say from DNO )

electrical installation: an assembly of associated equipment having co-cordinated characteristics to fulfil specific purposes

now there is nothing to stop you having more than one installation. you can easily split the tails and have 2 installations

and i cant see anything specific that says one installation (house) cannot feed another installation (shed). (but i havent looked into that part in much detail)

FWIW, i treat house & shed as one installation, with SOT for shed marked with rod loop as Zdb where TT'd, or Zs of submain if exported

 
And while we're at it:

BS7671:

Origin of an Installation - The position at which electrical energy is delivered to an electrical installation.

Electrical Installation (abbrv Installation) - An assembly of associated electrical equipment having co-ordinated characteristics to fulfil specific purposes.

Ze - That part of the earth fault loop path that is external to the installation

They are the only definitions that count - NO reason whatsoever that the 'outbuilding' cannot be deemed an 'Installation' within it's own right.

Constructive arguments. PLEASE!!??

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 19:59 ---------- Previous post was made at 19:58 ----------

You beat me Andy - Great minds ha ha

 
Sorry guys, I wrote a huge long post just now and it seems to have disappeared!

I hit the post button and it seemed to be there, now its gone.

I have some work to do tonight, I'll have to take a rain check, sorry.

I am not avoiding the issue & will come back to you with my ideas as soon as I can, but the job I have to do to be ready for site Monday is a bit more than I anticipated!!!

 
As a thought you have a supply coming into a shop tails split and then switchfuse going to upstairs flat with seperate check meter is this one installation or two?

 
bad day explode

well thats a lot of reading!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that'll teach me to turn me back for a few days!

:(

I shall reply proper in a bit when I got some references to back up my thoughts..

don't want to be accused of being a plonker!

:| :innocent

 
Firstly I would like to start with an apology to ADS, and Plumber.

Some argument have very good points raised, my only problem is the structure of these arguments. If you read through the posts there are many twists and turns, and references made to steer away from, uncomfortable areas, only to be brought up later in a different guise. I have allowed myself, due in part to personal comments to become embroiled in this, without remaining objective.

There are two thoughts on this subject, both are not wrong, and one is no more right than another.

My position on this is, that whilst two methods of earthing are present, the installation can be classed as one installation, and the supply as presented should not be overlooked. The supply as presented is a TNC-S, sometimes referred to PME, the two should not be confused, the supply companies still have a little time left to address this. Now there is some confusion as to when, and if, any TNC-S earthing can be exported. At one time there was an almost blanket no, given by the supply companies, in the past I have even seen this taken to extremes, in that whilst the internal building was TNC-S, the garden socket was presented as TT, and was fixed to the outside wall of the property. There are also instances where we can find that the earthing conductor from the earth electrode is taken back to the earthing terminal at the origin of supply.

Whichever way you look at it, there will be a relationship between the type of earthing and the provided supply, this is even more important when we have one presented earthing and within the installation add another type.

If we take an installation where we have subdivided the distribution, we will have to consider all eventualities. One of the main considerations is the prevention of shock. Even in a situation where we have an earth free location, the idea being that no earth path through the body is present, we can still have the potential for a shock because of other characteristics not accounted for or designed against.

We have all heard of the fears presented with regards to a dropped or broken neutral, this is rare, and one of the reasons why PME has been pushed forward, in the hope that should this occur there will at least be along the length of supply cable various references to earth. Connected loads from neighbours, also have an effect on the shared supply as presented, one of the reasons why radio hams hate TNC-S.

I have a number of concerns when any TNC-S is taken from origin and then TT'd. If we take the instance of a broken neutral for instance, the immediate danger would be the fault current passing from all the shared houses to your earth electrode. Another problem could occur when the main earthing conductor is removed, or become ineffective, from the earth electrode, as I implied before, this is where the neutral becomes a very important part, the TT part of the installation under this type of fault would in effect become TN-C. Compounded where no extraneous conductive parts are present.

If we take Ze, which ADS and Plumber have correctly identified as a reading external to the installation, could we have two separate Ze readings within the installation? In theory yes we can, however, great care needs to be taken so as not to confuse the two. The TT part of the installation will still be part of the general, total installation. The origin being sub divided, and this relationship should not be ignored. The Ra, of the earth electrode is used as a calculation, if the Ra is not known it may be replaced by Zs. I will continue this post at a later time, as its a long long explanation, and far too much to read in one go.

 
well that took some reading. well done

and sorry to go OT (had to happen at some point...)

At one time there was an almost blanket no, given by the supply companies, in the past I have even seen this taken to extremes, in that whilst the internal building was TNC-S, the garden socket was presented as TT, and was fixed to the outside wall of the property.
ive done this a few times aswell. mostly when the socket is going to be used for a caravan

RCD inside, ditch the TNCS earth, and use earth from a rod

 
Right, every time I look back at this thread thinking I will add a comment..

Some sod has added more bits, making me stop and re-read before posting

 
Nice one, Specs.

Once again, clearly expressed and explained.

 
Guys, some good comments above, I still have a few counter "arguments" though, can we keep this going for a few days?

I HAVE to finish the work I have on and I want to try and put my point across.

One thing though, I have disagreed with the ESC & the NIC and told them so previously the response was interesting, but, it was not clear cut!

I would also disagree again with them both, and would take my own standpoint on this, and, would be prepared to take this point as far as necessary.

One thing that does disappoint me is that I no longer have time to take part in IET committees!

Rain Check please?

Thanks.

 
Guys, some good comments above, I still have a few counter "arguments" though, can we keep this going for a few days?I HAVE to finish the work I have on and I want to try and put my point across.

One thing though, I have disagreed with the ESC & the NIC and told them so previously the response was interesting, but, it was not clear cut!

I would also disagree again with them both, and would take my own standpoint on this, and, would be prepared to take this point as far as necessary.

One thing that does disappoint me is that I no longer have time to take part in IET committees!

Rain Check please?

Thanks.
Dont keep us in suspense sidewinder, you obviously know your points, get them posted!!

 
Plumber,

You want reg no's etc. to back them up so that will take time!

I HAVE to get the mods done in the time I have allowed, else when I go back perhaps they won't let me leave!!! ;)

Then you'll be rid of me for a while, no internet where I'm doing this work!!! ;)

 
Plumber,You want reg no's etc. to back them up so that will take time!

I HAVE to get the mods done in the time I have allowed, else when I go back perhaps they won't let me leave!!! ;)

Then you'll be rid of me for a while, no internet where I'm doing this work!!! ;)
Dont worry about reg numbers, ill do that bit:)

Just your points of view for now LOL

 
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