Advise on automatic machine power up

Talk Electrician Forum

Help Support Talk Electrician Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Canoeboy said:
If the ducting does not send signals, then one could interpret or deduce that an air pressure switch built into the machine at the machine end, on the machine as a safety feature to stop starting without airflow is a passive link as it controls the machine its on, sends a signal to the machine its on and is only connected to a bit of ducting that is a passive link.......
Now you are getting somewhere, you would have to ensure that all controls were kept "within" a single machine as it were.

The modifications would still need to be designed & assessed as a safety function though.

Plus the because the number of people exposed would probably be the whole workforce at any time as without the LEV there is no controls over how far the dust could travel & affect not just the machine operator, you'd be looking at quite a high PL, possible d or e?

Then it gets expensive!

 
I'd be interested SW, in what the other contractor you mentioned, had done and whether the problems he created were, simply electrically saftey related (as in, it controlled the machinery correctly, but cuased voltages to appear on parts after they had been isolated), or controls related (as in the system had safety loop holes), or more likely.... both?

I am guessing that lives from each machines start ended up appearing at all the others even when the isolators were off, and that a machine with a stop button latched in, might be able to briefly spin up while a start was pressed?

 
I'd be interested SW, in what the other contractor you mentioned, had done and whether the problems he created were, simply electrically saftey related (as in, it controlled the machinery correctly, but cuased voltages to appear on parts after they had been isolated), or controls related (as in the system had safety loop holes), or more likely.... both?

I am guessing that lives from each machines start ended up appearing at all the others even when the isolators were off, and that a machine with a stop button latched in, might be able to briefly spin up while a start was pressed?


One thing, the guy had wired it such that he disabled completely the controls on the LEV, and, in certain situations the LEV would power up immediately after restoration of voltage following a power outage.

This was a simple one, single machine, single LEV.

There was no way to shut the LEV down if the machine was running, and no labelling on the incoming isolators (3 of them) as to which one did what.

400V control across the machines.

Simple things that are fundamentally prohibited by statue law.

Don't forget, if we had a poster come on here and say that they were going to ignore requirements from BS7671 such as not fitting RCD's where required, likely they would be told that it is not allowed under BS7671, which has no real teeth in law.

Machinery wiring and controls is covered by statute law, and that does have teeth, the standards are one way to comply with that statute law, ignore them, and you must be competent, and able to justify your work is just as safe under oath.

e.g. you would never get away with using 400V control in this manner as it is not a simple machine, thus the limit on voltages then becomes 277V ac, there was no control transformer, and no control circuit over current protective devices.

 
It is, as apparently a passive link is sometimes still a machine link but sometimes it isn't. This is vague.
There is no sometimes about it.

If the link does ANY signalling of ANY kind, in either direction, it's not passive, therefore it counts as a link.

Lev ducting is totally benign, and passive thus irrelevant, until you start implementing signals of any kind.

 
Canoeboy said:
But my suggestion, pressure switch on the said machine - there is no link of any kind in any direction to the extract machine......
Which, if you read my response to your post, I said was correct, but, the method of implementation still must meet the requirements of the standards.

If the machine is already CE marked, then immediately upon modifying it, that becomes invalid, thus the machine no longer complies with the requirements of PUWER.

 
Canoeboy said:
That wasn't what was being discussed though.......

What was being discussed was linking machines for auto start etc  :innocent
The problem is they go hand in hand, one cannot avoid invalidating CE marking when a machine is modified, which then becomes a breach of PUWER statute law.

So, to link machines for auto start, requires re-CE marking, of the linked machines to comply with SMSR & PUWER.

 
Canoeboy said:
But i believe my method wasn't linking them ! regarding SMSR depending how you interpret it.......


I had already said that your suggestion wasn't linking them, but, it does still modify the machine.

As far as the SMSR goes, you are placing a modified machine on the market, end of.

 
Canoeboy said:
No the machine/s are/is already there, at a place, see OP.......
If the machine is modified, then it is being placed on the market in its modified form for the first time, thus it's physical location is irrelevant.

 
Canoeboy said:
But its not been placed on the market, it was already in place........

Physical location is relevant, what if its in China ?
Then you go to the teaboy and send him to the store for more of the CE stickers they have in there. 

;)

 
could you not put a load sensing CT coil on the incoming mains and set it to the current of the lowest machine and use that to start the fan

or use a Castell type interlock with a key exchange on the isolator's this would not interfere with the CE mark  

 
Canoeboy said:
But its not been placed on the market, it was already in place........

Physical location is relevant, what if its in China ?
The requirements are clear, they include modified, and equipment built for own use.

If the equipment is in China, to be shipped to a location where SMSR apply then it must meet SMSR.

If the machinery is already in an are of SMSR jurisdiction, and is modified, then it must still meet SMSR, which requires a valid CE mark, as does PUWER Reg 10.

Modification means that the machine is now different. Thus it is new to the market, so it must comply, anything prior to the modifications is irrelevant.

 
could you not put a load sensing CT coil on the incoming mains and set it to the current of the lowest machine and use that to start the fan


I've suggested that a couple of times but apparently it isn't allowed.

 
Canoeboy said:
But my suggestion, pressure switch on the said machine - there is no link of any kind in any direction to the extract machine......
Never thought about about the reasoning before (never had to) but I take it this is why they use opto isolators in PLC's controlling start signals to multiple machines but having no direct connection?

 
Top