Catch 22 Confused, Need a straight answer. NAPIT Requirements for Self Employed / Sole Trader

[StevenF]

Hi

I have previously completed all that was needed to join a scheme as a "domestic installer" in 2021, then in the time between me starting the training and the certificates arriving the rules changed so i could not join anymore.

Qualification from this are:

• LCL DEI2020 Domestic Electrical Installer.
• City & Guilds 603/3319/4 Lvele 3 Requirmenrts for BS7671(2018).
• City & Guilds Level 3 Building Regs.

Since then I have explained the above situation to another training provider, attended their course and achieved the following:

• EAL 603/3298/0 Level 3 Requirements for BS 7671:2018(2022).
• EAL 603/0149/1 Level 3 Building Regs in Dwellings.
• EAL 600/4337/4 Level 3 Initial Verification & Certification.
• EAL 603/0144/2 Level 2 Fundamental Inspection, Testing & Initial Verification.
• EAL 600/4338/6 Level 3 Periodic Inspection & Testing.

I also have Level 3 PAT testing which i have held for many years through my other work.

As far as self employed goes, Tax, HMRC, VAT etc etc im fine with all of that and have been self employed for many years.

As far as insurance goes, given the qualifications above, im happily insured as an "electrician" with public liability and professional indemnity as required.

I have all of the tools required including a Megger tester with up to date calibration.

I have worked for many years (self employed) installing Audio & Video equipment in both private homes and commercial premesis, fully insured, no major issues.

NAPIT – Trying to join their current “Domestic Installer” scheme appears to be Catch 22, I need to complete some certifiable work in order to present it to them for assessment to then allow me to be able to certify work?
I also need a QS (Quality Supervisor), which cant ben me and has to have 2 years’ experience and some other qualifications.
The latest advice from a NAPIT advisor over the phone was to find a local company and work for them a as sub-contractor, therefore using that companies QS. But this would not then ever let me work on my own.

I’m not interested in being full time employed by an electricians company, this does not and could not work for me with my other commitments and is the whole reason I’ve gone down this route and self-funded everything in the first place.

Can anyone give a straight forward opinion on what (domestic only) work they believe I can legally carry out in my current situation, in particular.

• Periodic Inspection & Test for the rented sector Yes / No
• Minor Works Yes / No
• Consumer unit change / upgrade Yes / No
• Full (domestic) re-wire Yes / No

Any answers to provide clarity greatly appreciated, I have left out any names of training companies as their initial advice provided when selling me this training appears to be at best incorrect, at worst fraudulent and I’m on the verge of involving a solicitor.

 

[Andy™]

what is notifiable and not is in approved document P

if its not notifiable then just crack on and do the job, issue relevant EIC/MWC. if its notifiable then your decision. maybe just leave it for someone else

 

[Fleeting]

You have done your C&G Building Regulations so you should be aware of what you can and can't do.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Can anyone give a straight forward opinion on what (domestic only) work they believe I can legally carry out in my current situation, in particular.

• Periodic Inspection & Test for the rented sector Yes / No
• Minor Works Yes / No
• Consumer unit change / upgrade Yes / No
• Full (domestic) re-wire Yes / No

Any answers to provide clarity greatly appreciated, I have left out any names of training companies as their initial advice provided when selling me this training appears to be at best incorrect, at worst fraudulent and I’m on the verge of involving a solicitor.

If you have a current copy of BS7671, part 1 Chapter 11, Scope, regulations 110.1 thro to 115.1 detail the scope of all the key legal requirements relating to electrical work in the UK.

Remembering that regulation 114.1 states that BS7671 is non-statutory
(and of course we all know that DIY electrical work is also legally permitted!)

There is NO legal requirement to be a member of an electrical trade association to undertake any electrical work.

Building regulations are statutory and Part-P relates to Electrical Safety in Dwellings..
The Governments guidance is available as a free download PDF document:-
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a802da7ed915d74e622ceed/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf

Notifiable work is listed on page 6

Page 9 details the three recognised methods for obtaining a building regulations compliance certificate.
Only option (a) refers to self certification by someone who is a member of one of the registered competent persons schemes..
there are also option (b) & (c)...

Within this guidance, page 3, bullet point 1.1, does also state that work should be designed and installed to BS7671:2008 Amendment 1:2011...
Which is actually around 13years out of date..
So you could claim that Part P guidance is tosh and could be ignored!!!

As a general rule of thumb...
Contractors are typically only prosecuted for claiming to be a member of a trade body that they are NOT actually a member of!
(easy to prove a legal case against them for using fraudulent advertising logo's etc..)

Unless there is a blatantly clear written paper trail identifying who has undertaken some non-compliant Part-P related work...
Then it is very, very, unlikely anyone would ever be taken to court!!
{too much hassle too much cost for negligible return}

Any competent person can design install and test work in accordance with BS7671...
And issue a hard-copy or electronic certificate detailing all of the information required by the model forms in Appendix 6.
So basically there are routes that would allow you to undertake all of the work you have listed legally...

However.... Some customers may not be willing to employ your services unless you can prove you are a fully paid-up member of one of the recognised electrical trades bodies!

 

[binky]

For initial acceptance it's normal to show 2 pieces of work, a board change and some other form of new circuit are generally wanted. The board change can be in your own house, second piece of work in your mates house, but you need to go through notifying building control for both pieces if work to show legal compliance. That will cost, but it's a means to an end.

 

[ProDave]

Since @StevenF is in Northumberland, he could come to Scotland. Do 2 qualifying jobs for inspection by his assessor quite legally as (read my signature about Part P and Scotland) Get his registration with his scheme then go back and work in England.

 

[Murdoch]

Yup it’s all nonsense. They tighten up the CPS “entry” rules and drive more people to ignore them

Wonder what the CPS numbers are really like these days

 

[UNG]

Yup it’s all nonsense. They tighten up the CPS “entry” rules and drive more people to ignore them

Wonder what the CPS numbers are really like these days

The nonsense started nearly 20 years ago and has only got worse
The scams have failed IMO at their first objective of improving standards within the industry with the introduction of Part P all they have managed to do is lower standards to a point that has now become no longer acceptable and now they are trying to raise them they are in danger of creating a precedent where existing scam members with a lower qualification level than is now required for entry are allowed to remain without having to meet the new entry level requirements
Having seen the standards of work and EICR's from some scam members do the schemes have the credibility that they are perceived to have now

 

[StevenF]

You have done your C&G Building Regulations so you should be aware of what you can and can't do.

Agreed, but when you've then been told contradicting things by the trainers you dont know what to believe.

 

[StevenF]

For initial acceptance it's normal to show 2 pieces of work, a board change and some other form of new circuit are generally wanted. The board change can be in your own house, second piece of work in your mates house, but you need to go through notifying building control for both pieces if work to show legal compliance. That will cost, but it's a means to an end.

When this was suggest to NAPIT i got a reply "you need a nvq lvl3 to join a governing body if you want to call me on ##### I can go through everything with you"

This call then led to being bombarded with a load of CIty & Guilds numbers and a rant about "these cowboy training services"

 

[StevenF]

Since @StevenF is in Northumberland, he could come to Scotland. Do 2 qualifying jobs for inspection by his assessor quite legally as (read my signature about Part P and Scotland) Get his registration with his scheme then go back and work in England.

Cant see anything in your signature, im right at the other end of Northumberland but crossing the border to complete some jobs would not be an issue if this can then lead to a way of becoming accepted into a scheme. only issue would be as above "you need a nvq lvl3 to join a governing body...." from NAPIT.

 

[ProDave]

Cant see anything in your signature, im right at the other end of Northumberland but crossing the border to complete some jobs would not be an issue if this can then lead to a way of becoming accepted into a scheme. only issue would be as above "you need a nvq lvl3 to join a governing body...." from NAPIT.

I will spell it out. There is no part P in Scotland. If you are competent, you do the job, issue EIC or MWC and that is the job done. Just like it used to be in England and Wales. I have never been a member of a CPS scheme. And for notifiable work, which includes new builds, I just give my EIC to the building inspector and they accept it.

So if you run up to Jedburgh or any of the other border towns, do a CU change and another notifiable job, quite legally, then get your NAPIT inspector to check it, they should then sign you up.

Agreed it does seem silly that there is no easier way to get verified, and I am glad I have never had to play along with this nonsense and as I am retiring now, I never will.

 

[StevenF]

Thanks for the replies.

And for notifiable work, which includes new builds, I just give my EIC to the building inspector and they accept it.

I take it that would only be true for your work in Scotland?

NAPIT are refusing to go any further as i "dont have an NVQ Lvl3"
In England I'd have to go as per one of the three options in the Part P doc as mentioned above by @SPECIAL LOCATION.

1. Registered on Scheme - not an option according to NAPIT
2. Third Party Certifier - currently looking at options but this seems thin on the ground
3. Local Authority - Everyone seems to suggest this is not a realistic option due to the cost

 

[StevenF]

Any competent person can design install and test work in accordance with BS7671...
And issue a hard-copy or electronic certificate detailing all of the information required by the model forms in Appendix 6.
So basically there are routes that would allow you to undertake all of the work you have listed legally...

However.... Some customers may not be willing to employ your services unless you can prove you are a fully paid-up member of one of the recognised electrical trades bodies!

So in a nut shell:

• Crack on, do it properly and to the regs (i always would, wouldnt be able to sleep knowing id taken a shortcut somewhere).
• Make sure im insured (i am).
• Dont plaster your van and forms with logos for schemes you are not registered with.
• Issue the IET forms.

As for "Some customers may not be willing to employ your services....." - fine with me, i won't of lied to them, if they need to see a scheme logo i'll point them to the register and move on to the next customer.

 

[Andy™]

Agreed, but when you've then been told contradicting things by the trainers you dont know what to believe.

those providing the courses are only there to take your money by selling you as many courses as they can. do you really think they are going to give impartial advice or just sell you what they can?

 

[Andy™]

1. Local Authority - Everyone seems to suggest this is not a realistic option due to the cost

it is if the work is being done as part of something else then its an option and I've done that before. like an extension where building control need to sign it off anyway, just giv them EIC

 

[StevenF]

those providing the courses are only there to take your money by selling you as many courses as they can. do you really think they are going to give impartial advice or just sell you what they can?

Agreed and in the past now.
The current provider is still trying to get me to complete "Level 4" - which im also lead to believe wont make a bit of difference to NAPIT or anyone.

Looking for a way forward from the current situation.

 

[StevenF]

it is if the work is being done as part of something else then its an option and I've done that before. like an extension where building control need to sign it off anyway, just giv them EIC

But if its not part of something bigger, i.e someone wants new sockets in their loft or add circuit for electric cooker.
Then its "pay building control"?

 

[Andy™]

But if its not part of something bigger, i.e someone wants new sockets in their loft or add circuit for electric cooker.
Then its "pay building control"?

yep

 

[binky]

Daft question but have you tried NICEIC?